DAP added to wash

[mathew11]

I came across some DAP ((Diammonium Phosphate(Nitrogen source) today and was wondering has anyone added or needed to add DAP to there wash for a little extra kick?
Was interested in knowing if it made any difference to the final product/gravity?

[law-of-ohms]

Yes

DAP = yeast food....

[Kimbo]

Yes, it is one of the most common yeast nutrients :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[mathew11]

Well with that said, How much should I use per 25-30L wash?

[billmcc]

I use three tea spoons per 25 litre in wineos wash
hope this helps

[law-of-ohms]

I've used upto 1 cup!

That was an experiment thou, it worked....

I would normally use ~5 grams

[Longknife]

So would it imptove a TPW or is the paste enough?
Or would it just be a good thing to add say a teaspoon to most washes?

[haggendas]

I started off by using DAP then found it more economically to use garden fertilizer (Scotts Miracle Gro 20-20-20 general purpose fertilizer) since I can't find DAP near my area. The closest DAP source is ordering via internet and waiting days to get it. With garden fertilizer I zip down to the grocery store as needed and purchase some. I got this from a different forum and tried it. Works great! I ferment 50 gals. with about 105 lbs. sugar for a sugar wash and use ~13 spoonfools of the measuring spoon that comes with it with good results.

HD

[ChefRo]

I started off by using DAP then found it more economically to use garden fertilizer (Scotts Miracle Gro 20-20-20 general purpose fertilizer) since I can't find DAP near my area. The closest DAP source is ordering via internet and waiting days to get it. With garden fertilizer I zip down to the grocery store as needed and purchase some. I got this from a different forum and tried it. Works great! I ferment 50 gals. with about 105 lbs. sugar for a sugar wash and use ~13 spoonfools of the measuring spoon that comes with it with good results.

HD

I hope it isn't urea base. Don't want that in my body.

[crow]

Personally I use tomato paste but that just me , bit paranoid when it come to fertilizer . Yrs ago ppl used all sorts of nitrogen rich products , horse shit , urea , urine ect however products that contain urea are quite dangerous as they will produce a carcinogenic compound that will readily vaporize with some of the higher alcohols and therefore be present in the distillate
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Q_cCsjh4uw

[BCarter]

Using DAP is a very very common practice, at least in the winemaking industry...I would say 90% of all commercial wine would have DAP additions of some sort.

Common additions range from 50 to 100 parts per million (mg/l). However, you could go over this in distillation...we are concerned with having residual nitrogen that could lead to bacterial spoilage...

If you want your ferments to go strong, give the yeast a good environment...nitrogen and micronutrients such as GoFerm, oxygen (aerate the ferment) and heat (use your head, don't pour boiling water in...try an electric blanket for small scale stuff)...

[crow]

Yep my comment pertains to "garden fertilizer" more than DAP as the link I provided discusses mainly the dangers of combining ethanol and urea , something you turbo yeast users might want to look into ;-)

[BCarter]

Yep my comment pertains to "garden fertilizer" more than DAP as the link I provided discusses mainly the dangers of combining ethanol and urea , something you turbo yeast users might want to look into ;-)

This is very true, pissing in your ferment and using fertilizer are simply not recommended. Urea and ammonia are not the same thing. DAP is quite cheap anyway...call up GrapeWorks and get a 25kg bag...last you forever, it'll cost you similar to the fertilizer anyway.

[nb0s]

DAP and Tomato Paste are both yeast foods. Adding DAP to a TPW is superfluous.

Tomato Paste washes are for those who wish to avoid adding fertilizer type products to their washes.

Reread Croweaters posts.

[mathew11]

Thats the answer I guess I was after, That is has the same purpose as Tom Paste, so there is no real need to add it.

nb0s, Thanks for that Calculator, Put down a 50L wash 2 days ago and its going strong.

[Longknife]

Thanks nbOs. I knew Tom paste was there for nutrient just thought (Wrongly) that the DAP might boost an area that Tom paste wasn't as strong in.
Cheers

[BCarter]

DAP will boost nitrogen better than TPW will. That's a chemical fact, or wineries around would be adding tomato paste left, right and centre. This is due to the ease of DAP to be assimilated by yeast cells, as opposed to relying on enzymes to break down nitrogen present in the tomato paste into more inorganic forms.

Tomato paste however has the addition of micronutrients which will also aid in the positive growth of yeast and hence, fermentation.

You need to think what you are trying to achieve. If you are fermenting a medium high in micronutrients (grape juice, grain washes, tomato paste washes), then the yeast have access to enough molecules to produce their own proteins, and therefore, multiply. If you are trying to achieve a clean ferment without the presence of H2S or acetaldehyde (which is detrimental to distillation quality), then you will require DAP mid-ferment as it is quickly assimible by yeast. Tomato paste simply won't be taken up by the yeast quick enough to rid H2S brought about by lack of nitrogen. Lack of micronutrients will simply slow the ferment, as the yeast will eventually enter autolysis and feed on their own hulls, providing adequate micronutrients for fermentation. (all GoFerm is, is dried yeast hulls)...

[nb0s]

DAP will boost nitrogen better than TPW will. That's a chemical fact, or wineries around would be adding tomato paste left, right and centre. This is due to the ease of DAP to be assimilated by yeast cells, as opposed to relying on enzymes to break down nitrogen present in the tomato paste into more inorganic forms. ... Tomato paste however has the addition of micronutrients which will also aid in the positive growth of yeast and hence, fermentation.

Your post is quite correct. However there is a world of difference between the distilling world and the wine world. I mean who wants to drink a pink wine? :D This is a distillers forum and a TPW is always going to be distilled. Best practice might suggest the addition of DAP mid ferment but the KISS principle asks. "Is it really necessary?" TPWs that aim for only 10-11% ABV leave the yeast in such good shape and numbers that successive ferments may be done on the lees of these low ABV washes without the addition of more yeast.

[BCarter]

DAP will boost nitrogen better than TPW will. That's a chemical fact, or wineries around would be adding tomato paste left, right and centre. This is due to the ease of DAP to be assimilated by yeast cells, as opposed to relying on enzymes to break down nitrogen present in the tomato paste into more inorganic forms. ... Tomato paste however has the addition of micronutrients which will also aid in the positive growth of yeast and hence, fermentation.

Your post is quite correct. However there is a world of difference between the distilling world and the wine world. I mean who wants to drink a pink wine? :D This is a distillers forum and a TPW is always going to be distilled. Best practice might suggest the addition of DAP mid ferment but the KISS principle asks. "Is it really necessary?" TPWs that aim for only 10-11% ABV leave the yeast in such good shape and numbers that successive ferments may be done on the lees of these low ABV washes without the addition of more yeast.

Like I said, DAP is incredibly useful for distilling to avoid volatile H2S and acetaldehyde which greatly decreases the quality of distillation. It is completely necessary to avoid these aromas that occur due to a struggling ferment, no matter what the end alcohol is.

Unless, you don't really care about the quality of the distillation, in which case, go right ahead. If you arent bothered about nuances in congeners left over in the distillation, then hey, anyway you can get the ferment dry, do it.

The question of the yeast being in shape at the end of a ferment is not the question. Lees is lees...you will almost always be able to ferment from lees without much trouble. There are millions of active cells/ml in lees. Only issue will be the mutagenic nature of yeast through consecutive ferments.

This is a little off topic, sorry, but if you want a reproducible result, for distillation that requires congeners to be passed through (not the case for TPWs), you'll need the correct spread of volatiles present in the fermented wash. For this, you'll need a consistent strain of yeast that has low mutagenic properties. This is due to the whole process of fermentation involving 1000s of generations of yeast cells dividing/budding.

Sorry to be particular on details, I'm just sharing my knowledge of fermentation. I'd love to see people producing commercial quality products in their own homes...I'm just sharing the considerations that us commercial boys have...20,000 to 50,000L of product I deal with goes to distillation, I need to make sure I'm doing the best I can to ensure a good end product with minimal amelioration.

[stilly_bugger]

DAP is incredibly useful for distilling to avoid volatile H2S [Hydrogen sulphide / 'rotten egg gas'] and acetaldehyde which greatly decreases the quality of distillation. It is completely necessary to avoid these aromas that occur due to a struggling ferment, no matter what the end alcohol is.

BCarter, when would you add the DAP during a Tomato Paste Wash ferment?

I got this bit:

If you are trying to achieve a clean ferment without the presence of H2S or acetaldehyde (which is detrimental to distillation quality), then you will require DAP mid-ferment...

But do you mean mid-ferment specific gravity wise or time wise?