Wheat Whiskey Mash

[indenial]

I'm hoping a few people can ask their eyes over this plan.

Mash Bill:
12kg White Wheat (unmalted)
2.5kg Oats (unmalted feedstock whole oats)
2.5kg Pale Malt (barley)

The Plan
Mill all the grains in corona mill

In 70l esky with BIAB bag (or 2!)

1. Beta-Glucan Rest- Place grains in 25.5l of 46degC water to give 40deg temp. Adjust ph to ~5.4 - rest for 30mins
2. Main Starch Conversion Rest - Add 28l boiling water to bring temp to 68 deg. Adjust ph to 5.4. Add a smidge of high temp alpha amylase. Rest for 60mins. Stir occasionally
3. As it cools, add a smidge of gluco-amylase enzyme rest for another 60 minutes. Stir occasionally
4. Drain 1st runnings into fermenter
5. Add 25.4l of sparge water and stir for a few minutes -drain into fermenter

According to my calculator this will give my 65l of wash into the 80l fermenter @ 1.054 SG with an average (ish) conversion efficiency from my beer brewing on different equipment.

Concerns:
1. Beta-Glucan Rest - I am trying to minimise the amount of water at this point. Otherwise I'll have trouble adding enough boiling water to get the temperature up in the next step. I read somewhere that you don't need a lot of water for this step. i.e. a moist porridge will do the trick... but now I can't find where I read that. :shifty: If this step fails I'm going to have a snotty mess of unmalted wheat and oats.
2. I miss my starch conversion temp (too low). I think the esky will be full at this point. I'll have to drain some liquid out and re-heat it.
3. High temp alpha amylase not at optimum temperature (or ph as recommended is 6 from memory). I need some extra enzymes as the pale malt is insufficient. I figure the amylase will be less effective at this temp and ph, but still work alongside the natural barley enzymes.
4. Cooling the mash. I don't have a chiller. (I hot cube my beer.) I've chucked ice in my previous all-grain whiskey mashes to help get the temp down. I'm hoping this will suffice.

[hjubm2]

Hey mate,

First thing I notice is that your not gelatinizing the grains before starting any of the rests. As far as I know you won't be able to get any form of conversion before they are gelatinized. Someone might correct me but I have never had any luck unless I gelatinize the grain first.

[howard]

Hey mate,

First thing I notice is that your not gelatinizing the grains before starting any of the rests. As far as I know you won't be able to get any form of conversion before they are gelatinized. Someone might correct me but I have never had any luck unless I gelatinize the grain first.

i am thinking that if you take the raw grains straight to gelatization temp (wheat 55-65°C?) you will denature the glucanaze enzyme which work best at (36-45°C).
raw wheat has a lot of beta glucans apparently.
PS i'm still struggling with a raw wheat project. :sad:

[hjubm2]

Your right howard, doesn't cause me problems as I ferment & distill on grain as required. If I was doing this as indenial has mentioned I'd gelatinize the unmalted grains at a higher temp with a small amount of the HT Alpha & then either lower the temp to the Beta-Glucan temp before adding the malt (might not be enough malt to help with the BG though) and them raise the temp back up to the Alpha Amylase temp with hot water... or, the way I usually do it, do a reverse step mash with added enzymes. Eg gelatinize at 80ish then as the temp drops add the malt & then as it gets below the denature temp for the beta glucen enzyme I'd add enzymes for that allowing the mash to cool naturally to ferment temp, which would give the enzymes plenty of time to work. I've had good experiences with this process in the past...

[howard]

as i mentioned in previous post, i dabbled with a sack of raw wheat in jan/feb with varied results.
although it was an attempt to make wheat vodka (grey goose level) i suppose the mashing methods are similar until reflux/pot still time.
so i'm trying to decipher my notes from 8 months ago from a first attempt that had a low conversion with 100% raw wheat.
after 1st attempt,note to self says.....
1) mill the wheat finer through the corona mill
2) temp of mash (70°C) too low for the high temp a-amylase?
3) adjust rice hulls/milling to get better recirculation during mash

1) milled it 3 times for next try, in ever decreasing gaps (raw wheat is hard)
2) a-amylase has only 20% activity at 70°C according to makers.

2nd attempt
i took the wheat to the glucan rest as usual, then heading towards the high temp amylase best temp of 90°C.
at about 85°C the wheat started to expand and i spent the next 20 mins trying to keep the wheat in the malt pipe.
recirculating became almost impossible, and even after the gluco additions at 65°C, sparging was very very slow.

3rd attempt (just to be sure :smile: )- same as 2nd

i want to give this another go, as my son (grey goose fan), reckoned the vodka was great, but i only about 2L got bottled.
but i was only getting OG 1.030 and only 3L of product at a total 40%ABV average from a stripping run (instead of the usual 6L for an FFV)
i usually strip from 65%abv to 15%ABV.

so my thoughts are...
1) get a normal range a-amylase that works with the gluco, so i don't have to get the wheat as hot.
2) use 5kg of grain instead of 7kg in the 35L brewzilla and more water/more rice hulls.
or
3) do a on-grain fermentation with angel yellow -maybe do a glucan rest at 40°C first, drop it to 30°C and dump it in the fermenter with yellow angel.

hope you glean any useful info out of this long forgotten dabble :smile:
you will have the advantage of using a BIAB in your process.

[hjubm2]

howard, the expanding you noticed would have been from the grain gelatinizing/liquefacating. This is the main problem with unmalted grain & your low yield (as far as I understand it). Until the grain is gelatinized & goes through the liquefacation stage there won't be any conversion/enzyme activity on the grain.

[howard]

howard, the expanding you noticed would have been from the grain gelatinizing/liquefacating. This is the main problem with unmalted grain & your low yield (as far as I understand it). Until the grain is gelatinized & goes through the liquefacation stage there won't be any conversion/enzyme activity on the grain.

i think you're correct, and gives me the urge to try again :smile:
it's a bit confusing when researching gel temps.
a search just now on different sites suggests different gel temp ranges for unmalted wheat.
58-64°C is suggested twice.
eg
Gelatinization temps for commonly-used unmalted grains:
Barley: 140-150°F (60-65°C)
Wheat: 136-147°F (58-64°C)
Rye: 135-158°F (57-70°C)
however, one site says 60-70°C with this....
[b]Explanation: 60-70°C is necessary to begin gelatinization, while 90°C is required to finish gelatinization. Continued heating, on the other hand, results in more free amylose. At this point, agitation may disrupt granules and cause a stringy texture. Making ragi kali or ragi balls is a great example of this phenomenon in action.[/b]
another site says...
Flour contains starch, which is a type of carbohydrate. As the starch heats up in the liquid, at about 60°C, the starch granules begin to swell and absorb the liquid. Once the mixture reaches a temperature of around 85°C the starch granules will have absorbed a large amount of water (about five times their own volume of water) and they then bump into each other, eventually bursting and releasing the starch from the granules into the liquid. The starch released into the liquid causes it to thicken. Gelatinisation is complete when the liquid reaches around 96C

[indenial]

hbujm2 and Howard thanks so much for your insight!
Lots of great info. I had also looked up wheat gelatinisation temps and found similar info. I also saw some confusingly low values for maize/corn.
That 96degC is a bit daunting though.

New plan
2 x 35l batches. Increase the barley malt% = less wheat to deal with and more enzymes active in the 60-70degC range.
For 35l batch-

5kg wheat (56%)
3kg barley ale malt (33%)
1kg oats (11%)

1) Place wheat and oats in 10.5l 44degC water - adjust pH to <5.5 30minutes beta glucan rest
2) Add 30l boiling water bring temp up to 82deg - raise pH to 6.0 (for enzyme) - stir and add high temp alpha amylase
3) Conversion test (will iodine test work, or should i cool a sample and get sg???)
if bad - drain liquid - re-boil, re-add to grain and add more alpha amylase????
4) Allow mash to cool to 68degC - add barley malt, stir occasionally - check pH and adjust if needed
5) Once cooled to around 60degC add gluco-amylase
6) cool and transfer to fermenter

Questions/concerns -
Adjusting pH up to 6 for enzyme specs - not sure what to use. Bicarb soda?
82deg potentially still too cool. The other side of the coin is I am still scarred from attempting to boil corn and scorching an element. Maybe wheat is less likely to cause dramas

[bluc]

Calcium carbonate is better. I always adjusted water ph then added grain...not sure wich way is right...

[indenial]

Calcium carbonate is better. I always adjusted water ph then added grain...not sure wich way is right...

Hi bluc, yes, adjust pH first is what I normally do with all-grain beer brewing. I'll do that for the first rest here too. It's annoying that Beta Glucan rest calls for a pH of 4.5 - 5.0. Then the high temp alpha amylase calls for pH of 6. I have to do the beta glucan rest first, as the natural beta glucanase enzymes in the grain get denatured at higher temps.
Does the calcium carbonate dissolve ok? If so, that's sounds good. I've also got soda ash for the swimming pool that I could try. It just feels weird using something from the pool chemicals cabinet!

[bluc]

You can buy food grade calcium carbonate on ebay or your local chemical place...

[bluc]

I think you will find acidify is easier then alkaline. Do high temp first

[chipboy]

As I was advised Whistler shell grit at Petbarn. I have 3.5 kg for a JD rerun with backset.

[howard]

As I was advised Whistler shell grit at Petbarn. I have 3.5 kg for a JD rerun with backset.

i use shell grit, but mostly as a buffer against a PH drop, when the rising acidity will slowly dissolve the shell.
would it work fast enough to be effective on a brew day, to quickly raise the PH between steps?

[chipboy]

Short answer no. I read the original article and it talks about a mash PH buffer, not seen this available, but I have not looked very hard at it.

[indenial]

I gave this a crack on Sunday so thought I'd report in for any interested people.

I twice milled the 5kg of raw wheat through my corona mill. Howard, I can see why you went for 3 passes. The grain size variation makes it hard to set the mill.
The 1kg oats went through on the 2nd pass as they are a very long but thin grain.

I split the grain into 2 bags for easy lifting in my rectangular esky.
I hit the 40degC for the beta-glucan rest, but I didn't hit my pH for the beta-glucan rest. I relied on Brewer's Friend calculator for the calculation of the acid addition and instead of 5.4 I was about 6.8!
Otherwise I think this step went ok. The low water to grain ratio didn't seem to hurt this process.
The high pH negated my need to raise the pH back up on the next step.

I wanted the pH closer to 6, so I added a bit more acid before adding my 30ish litres of boiling water. I hit the 82degC predicted by Brewer's Friend. I tried to drain and re-boil the water to raise the temp up further, but I did a crappy job of keeping the grain hot in the meantime. So after re-boiling the liquid, it came up to 83degC! :roll:
I added the high temp alpha amylase and closed it up an hour or so. I took a sample at this point and it was 1.012 SG. Assuming reasonable conversion of starch to sugar at this point, it should be around 1.034 SG. I don't know if I should expect that though after only the high temp AA???

Once cooled to 68deg C I added the barley malt. At around 63degC I added the gluco-amylase enzyme.
After this I ended up with 1.050 (70% mash efficiency). I used the wrong PPG for the oats in my initial recipe. After re-calculating for that I should've expected 1.053 with my normal all grain efficiency. So overall, happy with this result, but still room for improvement.
Visually the grain didn't look "snotty" or anything like that. The liquid seemed to pass through the grain and bags without trouble so the beta-glucan rest was "good enough" for this mash bill.

Going forward:
Add more acid to get beta glucan rest pH down to about 6.0 and try to hold it there for the hight temp AA.
Get that high temp AA rest to a higher temp. (Keep the grain insulated while re-boiling the liquid).

[howard]

sounds like it went ok.
i bought a 20kg bag of raw whole wheat last week, but i've not decided on my exact method just yet.
1) using a BIAB in the brewzilla with the false bottom and do 3 x 6.6kg mashes with no sparging.
2) reducing the grain bill to 5kg and use the malt pipe as usual (maybe add rice hulls)
one thing i've already decided is to leave the water for the glucan rest at PH 6 to avoid having to raise it later (see what happens snot-wise)

i'm still thinking about letting some yellow angel loose on the crushed grains.
maybe all 3? :smile:

[chipboy]

Me too, 20kg raw wheat, 5kg mated, angel or bakers etc

Will mash it, have grinder and mash tun and thinking of Ian SMiley's recipe, quite interested in your outcome.

[howard]

A few weeks ago i did 2 x mashes with 6kg of unmalted wheat for each mash as a side by side test.
Method 1 –
35l brewzilla, false bottom and a BIAB in place of the malt pipe.
Using high temp alpha, normal temp beta, fermenting on the grain with AUS-05
I reckoned the BIAB would let me have heaps more water with the grain to allow liquefication, with no problems with sparging and expanding grain in the malt pipe.
Did the old glucan rest at 40°C, recirculating at all times with just the 500w element on.
Then ramped it up to 90°C and added the high temp alpha on the way.
The wheat did liquefy about 85°C as before.
Recirc pump had a little winge at one point, but a good stir of the grain sorted that out ( I think the BIAB was a bit clogged) and had no problems after that.
After 45mins at 90°C iodine test still showed some starch present, but at this stage, no gluca had been added (too hot obv).
Chilled rapidly with cooling coil to 60°C and did iodine test before gluco addition.
Surprise, surprise, iodine test says ok, no starch. :think:
Using old method and by dipping finger in wash, my experience with AG mashing tells that the mash is sweetish, but nowhere as sweet as it should be. ( I think I worked it out later)
Added gluco and held at 60°C for some time.
Now the mash is very sweet (using finger method)
OG was a very reasonable 1.060 and very happy with that efficiency.
To compare volume wise with method 2, I tipped the lot into a fermenter to ferment on the grain with AUS-05.
Method 2-
Heated water to 34°C in my HLT (35l digiboil)
Emptied water into the fermenter, stirred in 6kg of wheat, added 30gms of yellow angel, put in fermenting fridge.
That’s it!! (Apart from stirring for the first 3 days)

Stripping – after about 3 weeks.
Both on-grain ferments strained into brewzilla with just a BIAB bag inside, attached to an overhead pulley for draining.
Observation on draining – the yellow angel has ‘eaten’ away at the wheat and the spent grain is approximately 50% smaller the AUS-05 wash.
I have thought this was happening several times before when I have let yellow angel loose on spent grains in sugar heads.
So both drained and squeezed by hand, yellow label 21L, AUS-05 18L
Strip- I usually strip from first output (62-65%ABV) down to 15%ABV, as I find that this gives me an average of 40%ABV low wines.
Yellow label strip produced 5.7L in this range.
AUS-05 produced 4.8L in this range.
Conclusion – I’m very happy with the output from the BIAB method, from 1.040(?) to 1.060, and from memory, I think I only got about 3-3.5L low wines before. :smile:
I’m also very happy with the yellow angel, how simple and easy is that, with better output as well. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
I will be ordering another brick of yellow angel on the strength of this.

re iodine test - iodine tells you there is no starch present, but cannot tell you if the converted starches are sugars or dextrins.
it can be a very misleading test to the untraine finger :smile:

[indenial]

Howard that is some great research you did there.
Did you end up milling finer than your first attempt?
Do you think the higher temperature was the key improvement from your initial efforts (for the high temp alpha)?
The yellow label angel yeast sure looks like an easy option.
Are you going to distill the low wines separately to see the taste difference?