pH Buffering

[Whiskyaugogo]

Hey all,

Thought I would share some information on pH buffers. There is little info around on how to address a crashing pH and really the only info was on another site by a poster by the name of "DrWho". If you search you can find this should you wish to read it. I have tested this method with varying results and all my tests are with all grain mashes. What I needed was a product that would hold a pH and not create any unwanted flavours delivering a consistent fermentation cycle.

I engaged a company a while ago to develop a yeast strain for my Whiskies and they were only to happy to assist me again with the pH buffer question so I will try and interpret their conclusions and the results :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Products; Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate and Citric Acid

The Sodium Citrate needs to be 99 – 100% pure Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate, no residual Citric Acid or Sodium Bicarbonate. This product is however, slightly alkaline, which still requires an amount of citric acid to keep the pH down.

The calculations are quite extensive due to many variables, however I have calculated that only Sodium Citrate & Citric Acid amounts used would be as follows.

Sodium Citrate = 264.7g
Citric Acid = 54g
For a 40l wash

This correlates to the following amounts for different size trials;

For smaller scale
6 - 6.6g per Litre Sodium Citrate
1.2-1.35g per Litre Citric Acid

For larger scale
1.2kg – 1.32kg per 200L
240g – 270g per 200L

Results - Using this formula, you can keep a wash around 5.5 pH till it is fully fermented (you can basically set your own pH level needs). In 10 washes starting at 5.5, all fermented out and the biggest drop was to 5.3.

Hope this helps if you should need it. :smile:

[Meatheadinc]

treat the problem and not the symptom :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I remember asking about sodium citrate buffers a year or so back and no one had any answers
please keep us posted with your results

[Undertaker]

Thanks for the info there.

Products; Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate

Is this stuff easily available?

Cheers Phil

[P3T3rPan]

Very interested in this, but confused as to your terminologies.
You start by naming Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate then go on to talk of sodium citrate, the common name for three types of citrate...Monosodium citrate, disodium hydrogen citrate, or Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate.
So is it imperative to have the Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate or will any of the three sodium salts of citric acid do?
Mmm clean your urinary tract and relieve your acid stomach while you imbibe. :shock:
Used in industry for boiler descaling too.

[Whiskyaugogo]

Very interested in this, but confused as to your terminologies.
You start by naming Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate then go on to talk of sodium citrate, the common name for three types of citrate...Monosodium citrate, disodium hydrogen citrate, or Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate.
So is it imperative to have the Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate or will any of the three sodium salts of citric acid do?
Mmm clean your urinary tract and relieve your acid stomach while you imbibe. :shock:
Used in industry for boiler descaling too.

Sorry about that;

Product is Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate (I abbreviated to Sodium Citrate), you need to use this with the Citric acid.

If you mix the compounds first (sodium bicarb and citric acid for example), the carbon dioxide release in the ferment will drop by at least 0.75 ph. While this will work as a buffer, the results vary greatly.

The other thing Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate is used in is most foods and beverages commercially available today :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Whiskyaugogo]

Thanks for the info there.

Products; Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate

Is this stuff easily available?

Cheers Phil

Yes it is Phil, eBay as well as many companies in Australia sell it, just make sure it is 99-100% Tri-Sodium Citrate Dihydrate. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[rumdidlydum]

Nice info whiskey. :D
Isn't tri sodium an acid.? Don't you want to add an alkaline to buffer it if the ph was dropping?
Or have i missed something :think:

[scythe]

The beauty with buffers is that they will auto-correct and balance on its own.
It might start as tri-sodium citrate but when things get to acidic it will react with the acidic compound that is deopping the pH and for a "basic salt" which will asjust the pH back up until it reaches equlibrium and settles down again at its native pH.
It will do the same thing if the pH get too high as well, it will react and create a more acidic salt and self correct.

[rumdidlydum]

The beauty with buffers is that they will auto-correct and balance on its own.
It might start as tri-sodium citrate but when things get t up o acidic it will react with the acidic compound that is deopping the pH and for a "basic salt" which will asjust the pH back up until it reaches equlibrium and settles down again at its native pH.
It will do the same thing if the pH get too high as well, it will react and create a more acidic salt and self correct.

Thanks all cleared up cheers mate :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Velophile]

I've used this stuff - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... 5.2%20110G

Seems to work, note I've not tested the ph of my mash. ;-)

[1 2many]

I've used this stuff - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... 5.2%20110G

Seems to work, note I've not tested the ph of my mash. ;-)

:wtf: Then how do you know it worked :O)

[Velophile]

I've used this stuff - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... 5.2%20110G

Seems to work, note I've not tested the ph of my mash. ;-)

:wtf: Then how do you know it worked :O)

It's like all the water chemistry I've heard or read about, really hard to test or measure during a brew session.

Last brew club meeting a pro brewer gave us an intro to water treatment, most of us went away realizing how much we didn't know. The main message, for melbourne water, was that some water treatment is better than none, just don't over do it.

[1 2many]

I've used this stuff - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... 5.2%20110G

Seems to work, note I've not tested the ph of my mash. ;-)

:wtf: Then how do you know it worked :O)

It's like all the water chemistry I've heard or read about, really hard to test or measure during a brew session.

Last brew club meeting a pro brewer gave us an intro to water treatment, most of us went away realizing how much we didn't know. The main message, for melbourne water, was that some water treatment is better than none, just don't over do it.

I agree for sure but as fas as I go is dechlorination but that is with sunlight.

[InglisHill]

I just use shells off the beach, give them a boil and toss them in the wash when it first goes down.

No hassels,

Works great,

And free.

[Undertaker]

I tossed some cuttle bones in my latest CFW wash.
Dunno if they will do anything but I thought Id give them a try.

Cheers Phil