Need help running my Deneuraliser

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Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Ravvin » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:43 pm

Hi all.
I have a 5 plate Neuraliser with a 500mm packed section containing 2x 500gm rolls of copper mesh separated by loosely packed stainless scrubbers on a 5 Star 50L milk churn boiler..
I have a 1000 litre IBC with a pressure pump to circulate the cooling water. The water comes from the pump to the house through a 3/4" reinforced hose. It then splits at a Y fitting that has a built-in ball valve on each output fork. From the Y, one side goes straight to the PC through reinforced clear 1/2" hose. The other side runs to a 1/2" gate valve and then to the RC in the same sort of hose. The outflow from the PC and RC join at another Y fitting and back to the IBC through more 3/4" pipe.

I did the cleaning run last weekend, using the heads and tails saved from all my previous TPW runs through my T500, watered down to below 40%. I didn't have enough wash to cover the top element, so ran it on a single 2400w element through a voltage controller.
I started the water when I turned the power to the element on and ran it with no restriction to the water flow. After about 45 minutes, I noticed there were droplets falling back down onto the bottom bubbler plate. From there, the plate quickly loaded up and I watched it progress up through the other 4 until they were all bubbling away madly. I had the ball valve on the bottom of the parrot open so I could tell if I was over-powering the RC at any point.
I let it reflux for 30 minutes and started slowly closing the gate valve, watching for the first drips from the bottom of the parrot. I closed it a 1/4 turn, waited a minute to see any change, then closed it another quarter. Eventually, I realised the gate valve was closed, yet water was still flowing. (I worked out later that it was just poorly made, with so much play in the screw threads that the gate could move around and jamb in the housing.)
I reopened the gate valve fully and used the ball valve on the inlet Y fitting. Its really not ideal as it is really hard to get fine control. I was able to get the PC output to either drip or run at a stream that ended up being about 4L/hr. Way too fast for a good run, but ok for a cleaning run. I did 300ml cuts, just for the practice, but this was feints and I ended up just dumping them all in my Bulk Crap Storage flagon for future cleaning runs. The bulk of the spirit coming off had the alchometer sitting around 92%, but it started to drop below 90% near the end.

Now onto Sunday's run and the issues.
I popped the RC off and dumped 10L of hot water down the packed section to rinse out the copper mesh, scrubbers and the plates. Once it drained through, I lifted the still off the boiler and emptied it out, rinsing with hot water to get the last of the pong from the feints out. I can't run a drain hose as the boiler has to sit on the kitchen floor, on a ceramic tile to stop the heat melting the lino. I have about 2" clearance between the top of the still and the ceiling.
I had 2x 30L fermenters filled with CFW. Both had cleared a month or more ago. I had a bit of an oops with one, as I bought the sugar in both 2 and 3kg bags, to save me having to measure it as I use 5kg in a 30L wash. What I forgot was I bought an extra 3kg bag for use in cooking and grabbed the wrong one. So one wash had 5kg and the other had 6kg. The wash with 6kg bubbled for about a week longer than the 5kg wash. When I measured the specific gravity and corrected it for temp, the 5kg wash came out at 9.29% and the 6kg was was 12.13%.
I filled the boiler and started the water and both elements. I ran the bottom element through the voltage controller. After an hour all 5 plates were bubbling away happily, so I shut off the top element. I had the water to both RC and PC wide open and ran it in reflux for 45 minutes and then I dialled the bottom one back to 80% and started shutting down the water to the RC, while watching for the first drips from the bottom of the parrot. I had shut the gate valve right down and used the ball valve to tweak it until it started to flow. I dropped the first 200ml as fores and closed the parrot dump valve. When it filled up, it showed 92% and I started taking off 200ml, then dumped the parrot into the same cuts jar, taking it up to 300ml. I figure if I don't, I am mixing fores with the heads and later, heads with the hearts.

Now the problem.
I was able to dial the RC in so I was taking off between 2 & 2.5L/hr. I noticed that when I had the flow rate just right, the stream from the parrot was curving back, almost like it was trying to crawl back up the outside of the parrot spout. The issue was that after taking the first 300ml cut of heads, the output alcohol percentage had dropped below 90%. Every jar I took off, it dropped more. By jar 10, it was down to 70%. I kept going and by jar 15 it was at 60%. Finally at jar 19 it dropped below 40% and I shut the element off and let it cool with the water opened back up fully for another hour, in case there was any leftover alcohol vapour coming off.
Up until about jar 17, all 5 plates appeared to be bubbling happily. From 17 to the end I saw the top one was almost empty and I could hear splashing in the packed section.

I left the cuts out to air for 2 days and tested them tonight. Interestingly, this is the first time I have had jars airing and yet can't smell anything in the house. Whether it is because its a CFW instead of my usual TPW wash, or whether its the difference in quality between the 5 Star Neuraliser and the T500, I don't know, but am very happy.
With the cuts, I found a very distinct change between jar 7 and 8, so the first 7 jars went in the feints flagon. At jar 15, I could just start to taste a change, jars 16 to 19 also went into the feints flagon. I combined jars 8 to 15 as hearts and it measured out at 60%. I don't think 2.4L @ 60% is right for 50L of CFW at approximately 10%.

What I don't understand is that the cleaning run using feints at around 30% was coming out at mid to high 90's. This run went smoothly, with no surprises other than having the % drop right from the start. I must be doing something wrong, but not sure what.
Has anyone else run into this issue?
Something to consider is that its fairly cool here now. The water in the IBC was 6°. I hope to pick up a decent needle valve to replace the gate valve on the RC line and some really good insulation that was ordered by a local mill for wrapping steam pipes and was left over from the job. It seems a pity to hide all that nice shiny stainless though. :)

Greg.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby bluc » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:18 pm

My money is on a leak likely when you replaced the rc after rinsing. Other reasons for poor speedor droping abv running to hard not enough or not enough heat/rc cooling water ratio to mantain abv. I have seen dropping abv mentioned few times(myself included) and mostly seems to come down to a leak . Going by your post I doubt its any of the other things I mentioned.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby db1979 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:01 pm

I reckon you're running too fast, not enough reflux. You'll need better control over your RC so that you can send more fluid back to your plates, more reflux. You said your gate valve is dodgy, just get one that isn't dodgy. I run a gate valve and I find it's really reliable. Just make sure you have a play with the gate valve before you part ways with your money.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby hillzabilly » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:20 pm

I like ta run mine at 3600wt,for a good balance of speed and quality,and still collect at 2-2.5lt /hr.I strip wash without packing or plates then when I have a full load do a spirit run at 30-40%abv,so you should know with a lot better certainty ,how much alcohol is in your run,YES we all expect more than we get to some degree,but with a few more runs being done and more practice you will improve your results,also adding extra water to cover elements is not going to be a problem,I have a small bit of copper mesh pushed into the parrot spout with a taper to even out the stream and direct it straight down .cheers hillzabilly
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Ravvin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:40 am

Thanks all.
I doubt it is running too fast. After refluxing it for 45 mins, it was only running off a single 2400W element set to 80% on the voltage controller. The first of the heads came off at 92%, but it immediately started dropping from there.
I timed every jar of cuts and it was always between 5 and 6 minutes to take off 200ml. That works out as 2 to 2.4L/hr by my calculations. (Each cut jar ended up with 300ml, as I dumped the parrot each time I switched cut jars, but the timing of the 200ml started when the first drip came out of the parrot.)

A leak is possible, I suppose, but I would think I'd notice it after sitting in a small, cold room with it for several hours. I know with the T500 that after a stripping session I would get a headache and feel as if my face was sunburnt, but nothing like that happened during this run or during the cleaning run.

I'm starting to wonder if I need to run with more heat AND RC flow, to force it to reflux while only taking off the vapour that gets past. Sort of like how Hillzabilly runs his in the above post. By running it with low heating power and dialling the RC flow down so I get take-off, aren't I effectively running it as if the RC wasn't there? The cold weather wouldn't be helping either. The kitchen would have been below 10° and the water in the cooling system was 6°, and I couldn't notice any change at the end of the run when I shut the pump down.

I'll start another 2 batches of CFW tonight, but it won't be ready until next weekend at the earliest. I'll pick up a single bed electric blanket to wrap around the fermenters, and set it on low and see how it goes. If I used the heat bands I'd need a load of them. My fermenters would look like something from a BDSM fantasy.
It was 8° inside the house this morning and 2.5° outside when I went out to the car to go to work.
I'll also have time to find a decent metering valve for the RC and hopefully some insulation for the boiler. Can only help.

Greg.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby dans.brew » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 am

Hey Ravvin
I had this exact problem when i started using my bubbler... a dropping Abv. Don't discount the possibility of a small leak or 2 especially if your still is fairly new and all the seals are settling in.
My problem in the end was probably a combo of a leak and not enough heat which wasn't giving me enough reflux.
I was outside using it at night due to being time poor and the cool night breeze was enought to cause a lot of heat loss... was actually causing my RC to work erratically too.
Anyway, i helped this problem a lot by insulating my boiler... just need that dedicated brew room.. one day. The other alternative is to run a second element (to what the rc can handle) on a power controller.
Hope this may help :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby coffe addict » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:17 am

My money is on not enough reflux. @80% of 2400w it's not got enough power going in to maintain the abv @2 to 2.5Lhr. As hilzabilly said he runs his at 3600w, I used to run mine between 3000w and 3600w.
You'll find a ball valve can be tricky to get the hang of but a dodgy one nearly impossible. It's quite important to have control over the water flow for repetitive results
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby db1979 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:54 am

Ravvin wrote:I doubt it is running too fast.

When we say running too fast, we are basically saying that the balance of the power to cooling is out, and you're collecting faster than you should be for that amount of power input. This means you're not getting enough reflux. Your issues are ultimately caused by not being able to control your water flow well enough. Having cold cooling water and a cold distilling environment is contributing to this problem.

You could successfully run your still at that power level but it would be very difficult to get the right amount of cooling flow and as soon as a colder breeze runs past it'll wreck your still temp gradient and throw it all out of balance. Throwing more heat at it doesn't mean running faster, it means the balance is easier to achieve with your valve and cooling water temp.

The maximum amount of heat you can throw at it will be determined by your RC design or the efficiency of your downcomers. The RC won't hold full reflux if your overpowering it and the downcomers will cause flooding if they can't handle the amount of fluid on the plates. You can also get blow-past through the downcomers if you run too much heat - vapour goes up the downcomers instead of your caps.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Yurugaboy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:54 pm

I think leak and not enough heat - Leave RC fully open on spirit run and use power control on bottom element. I use between 2.4 and 3.6 kw on a run . I have 2 x 2.4 kw elements in a fifty litre 5 star kettle . I have a simple thermal coating for my kettle - stops heat fluctuating. My abv goes from 95 to approx 80 in a normal spirit run.

Check your seals and tri clamps.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby db1979 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:40 pm

I found a leak on my fill port towards the end of my last run but the abv sat between 94 and 95 all run long. I've had multiple instances of leaks that were discovered throughout runs where abv was stable. I don't see how a leak can be a cause for dropping abv... Unless maybe it's a massive leak, like half a litre per hour. But then I doubt that anyone would be getting on here to ask for help in this case cause I would expect most people to realise that such a leak was occurring and subsequently know the cause of their problem.
If someone can explain the reason why a leak causes abv drops I'd like to hear it. I don't see how a leak is any different to when you reduce cooling of your RC and start collecting (it's no longer on the column) or going down a downcomer (it's no longer on the plate). To me a leak has no different effect other than simply removing vapour or liquid from the column or the plates. I do concede though that a large leak will have a profound effect, but I doubt collection rates could be above 2 L per hour with a large leak from ~2000 W (80% of 2400 W).
Anyway, that's just where I'm at the with my understanding of leaks. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby coffe addict » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:43 pm

I think you have a point dB, these questions pop up quite regularly and usually by someone learning how to run with plates and rc. When people understand the balance and regularly achieve this they don't have issues with dropping abv... We've all still had leaks mid run without the associated lowering abv.
We just shut down fix leak and carry on.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby P3T3rPan » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:53 pm

This happened to me once.
Turned out to be a water leak in my pc.
I had dropped it.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby scythe » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:22 pm

Leak would drop %ABV of output because you are essentially pumping out more spirit.
Not to mention the missed reflux interaction.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Amberale » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:42 pm

Mate, I am running in the same rig and have had similar problems.
Also, I am in a Vic mountain area with similar temps which are really different to subtropical QLD.

My last couple of runs have been with 2 elements on until full reflux then one 2400w element(bottom) on full.
I reckon 80% of one elemet wil be too low.

I added a needle valve for the RC and it runs between 180-400ml/min during take off with the input water temp down to
6 degrees C.

These really cold temps make it hard to regulate the RC beause of the low flow rates.

We probably need smaller RCs for winter.

Feel free to PM me for more discussions, although I may led you astray. :)
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby coffe addict » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 pm

scythe wrote:Leak would drop %ABV of output because you are essentially pumping out more spirit.
Not to mention the missed reflux interaction.

As mentioned by dp the level of leak required to accomplish this is massive and I like to think would be obvious to everyone including a newbie. A small leak wouldn't make much difference certainly not to cause abv to drop like a pot still.
1 litre of water turns into 1700L of steam so I don't see a small leak making much difference.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Ravvin » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm

Thanks all.
After reading all the comments I'm thinking I will insulate the boiler and column, as well as replace the gate valve with a needle valve. I'll run both elements, with one on a voltage controller at about 50% or so.

Image Image

This should fit straight in where the gate valve is and give me fine control, as well as open up large enough to handle full reflux. The valve was free but I had to buy the brass tails. :)
My contractors use a lot of hydraulic gear so I raided their parts shed.

On another note, it was 0.6° outside this morning and 3.5° inside. I just picked up a cheap single bed electric blanket, one of the old basic type with a clicky temp controller, not these modern digital things with auto shut-offs at 12hrs.
I'll set up my 2 fermenters with CFW and wrap the blanket around them, then wrap an old doona around that to keep the heat in. Then I just have to keep the cat off it. I'll keep an eye on the temps and set up a proper temp controller if it becomes necessary, but the temp in back hallway is pretty constant, so once I work out what heat setting works best, it should just bubble away happily.

Greg.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby hillzabilly » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:17 pm

Sounds like a good plan,I used ta have my fermenter in an old cobbered with an electric lamp to keep it warm in the frosty times,ah yes the good old days ,hope it all works out.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Rock » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:33 pm

Yeah winter's a bitch for fermenting, i can fit a 60 lt fermenter into a old unused fridge and use a 100 w heat belt i wrap around the 500mm packed section as it hold the residual heat ,i then place this in corner of the fridge near the fermenter when the inkbird turns off the heat, i never plug in the cooling during winter.
The packed section hold the heat well radiating for some time after power of.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby Amberale » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:37 pm

I have only had problems with the Neutraliser when running both heating elements(one at 50%).
I think the 4” RC gets overpowered with more than 2400k of heating.
Once you put your needle valve in place you should be able to control it.
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Re: Need help running my Deneuraliser

Postby db1979 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:56 pm

I do feel for you guys trying to run reflux stills in cold climates. The specific heat capacity of water (amount of energy needed to raise 1 kg of its mass by 1°C) is quite high (4.18 J/kg.°C), much higher than stainless or copper. Basically for every 1°C decrease in cooling water temp, you'll need roughly 4 times LESS flow of cooling water for the same energy input. On top of this, anyone in a cold climate will get more passive reflux on the sides of their columns than those of us in warmer climates. Maybe it'd pay to recirculate water, do multiple stripping runs and then do a final spirit run with the warmed up water (warned up from the stripping runs) in order to have an easier time controlling reflux. Make for a long stilling day.

I have had a few vodkas tonight, so if none of this makes sense there'll be a good reason why. :dance:
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