Changing ph

Just starting out and need some advise? then post it in here.

Changing ph

Postby bluc » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:34 pm

So i always read calcium carbonate to decrease acidity. But in practice doesnt dissolve in water and have found its much better as a preventative(buffer) than a ph changer..so have been reading about calcium hydrocloride, water soluble and it increases ph better. Any reason not to use it? Anyone with chemistry background?
bluc
Site Donor
 
Posts: 8967
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: sunshine coast
equipment: 2" pot with 2" shotty 400mm long 5x 1/2" on a t500 boiler.
50l keg boiler 4" still mount 4" sight glass 1" drain..
4 plate 4" bubbler, 600mm packed section

Re: Changing ph

Postby Teddysad » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:53 pm

I have always used calcium hydroxide aka hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 which IS soluble at low temperatures. It is super cheap and easily available.
It is widely used in the food industry so is very safe
Last edited by Teddysad on Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Teddysad
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Location: Canterbury NZ
equipment: FSD 4"SSG with packed column 50l Boiler keg. Alex 25 for smaller scale runs

Re: Changing ph

Postby bluc » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:05 pm

Is it better after the fact eg stalled wash or as a buffer? Prevent stalled wash..
Last edited by bluc on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bluc
Site Donor
 
Posts: 8967
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: sunshine coast
equipment: 2" pot with 2" shotty 400mm long 5x 1/2" on a t500 boiler.
50l keg boiler 4" still mount 4" sight glass 1" drain..
4 plate 4" bubbler, 600mm packed section

Re: Changing ph

Postby warramungas » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:58 am

Did you mean calcium hypochlorate? Thats bleach and probably not so good for the yeast or for you.
You need a free OH (hydroxyl) to bond to the free hydrogen and form water raising the pH.
Lime has two and caco3 forms co2 and 1 OH (normally). The more OH something has the better it raises the pH.
Calcium is inert and doesnt mess with the wash much and the less stuff in it the better so be careful of anything youre putting in your wash.
From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra
warramungas
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Nor Perth
equipment: 180 litre fermenter x 2
30 liter boiler
PDA-1
2" four plate modular bubbler
2" one meter long LM column
110 liter boiler with 25 liter (max) inline thumper
4" x 4 plate bubble cap still

Re: Changing ph

Postby Teddysad » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:47 am

warramungas wrote:From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra


1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here
Teddysad
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Location: Canterbury NZ
equipment: FSD 4"SSG with packed column 50l Boiler keg. Alex 25 for smaller scale runs

Re: Changing ph

Postby warramungas » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:59 am

Teddysad wrote:
warramungas wrote:From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra


1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here


As i said, dont quote me but is the sheet talking about dissolved caco3 in water?
Otherwise thered' be no shellfish in the ocean. Caco3 is naturally stable in water, ie. A solid which has little effect on ph until it encounters acidic conditions and dissolves. Lime can have a huge effect on ph as its happy to dissolve naturally until it reaches its happy place which i guess is the 12.5 ph you stated there.
Edit: I'll add that ph has no need to get anywhere near that high for our process and calcium carbonste is cheap and easy even for begginners to use cause you cant really mess up with it. You can mess up if you add too much lime.
Last edited by warramungas on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
warramungas
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Nor Perth
equipment: 180 litre fermenter x 2
30 liter boiler
PDA-1
2" four plate modular bubbler
2" one meter long LM column
110 liter boiler with 25 liter (max) inline thumper
4" x 4 plate bubble cap still

Re: Changing ph

Postby Amberale » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:08 pm

Interesting guys.
I have found that with Freddy’s VFV, I adjust the PH to 5 with citric acid,when adding the yeast but that a day or two later the PH will have dropped to 3.5 or so.
I have tried baggies of shell grit and a calcium product fron the HBS and neither seem to have done much.
The washes fermented out to 990 but took a couple of weeks even with aquarium heaters set to 26C.
Amberale
 
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:47 pm
Location: Bacchus Marsh(ish)
equipment: 5* Neutraliser.

Re: Changing ph

Postby bluc » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:19 pm

warramungas wrote:Did you mean calcium hypochlorate? Thats bleach and probably not so good for the yeast or for you.
You need a free OH (hydroxyl) to bond to the free hydrogen and form water raising the pH.
Lime has two and caco3 forms co2 and 1 OH (normally). The more OH something has the better it raises the pH.
Calcium is inert and doesnt mess with the wash much and the less stuff in it the better so be careful of anything youre putting in your wash.
From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

Actually think it may have been what teddysad said. I got mixed up with calcium chloride but believes that makes it more acidic?
Edit you reakon we better sticking with calcium carbonate? If so I will.
Last edited by bluc on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bluc
Site Donor
 
Posts: 8967
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: sunshine coast
equipment: 2" pot with 2" shotty 400mm long 5x 1/2" on a t500 boiler.
50l keg boiler 4" still mount 4" sight glass 1" drain..
4 plate 4" bubbler, 600mm packed section

Re: Changing ph

Postby db1979 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:31 pm

Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible.

Warra is spot on, the calcium carbonate will sit undissolved if the acid gets neutralised.

Calcium chloride will lower pH as it reacts with water to make calcium hydroxide and hydrogen ion. But I'm guessing it won't get any lower than pH 4 at absolute most.
db1979
 
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: South of the big smoke in banana bender land.
equipment: Eve - 4" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (sieve plates), 330 mm packed section on a keg boiler with 2 x 2000 W elements.
Currently having a makeover: 2" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (1" bubble caps, no sight glasses...maybe not for much longer!) on a bain-marie boiler.

Re: Changing ph

Postby db1979 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:15 pm

Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.
db1979
 
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: South of the big smoke in banana bender land.
equipment: Eve - 4" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (sieve plates), 330 mm packed section on a keg boiler with 2 x 2000 W elements.
Currently having a makeover: 2" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (1" bubble caps, no sight glasses...maybe not for much longer!) on a bain-marie boiler.

Re: Changing ph

Postby Teddysad » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:51 pm

Teddysad wrote:
warramungas wrote:From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra


1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here


My error it was calcium hydroxide to which I was referring a product I generally use for pH adjustment

https://www.lime.org/documents/lime_bas ... emical.pdf
Teddysad
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Location: Canterbury NZ
equipment: FSD 4"SSG with packed column 50l Boiler keg. Alex 25 for smaller scale runs

Re: Changing ph

Postby EziTasting » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:25 pm

db1979 wrote:Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.


I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).
db1979 wrote:Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(
EziTasting
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:15 pm
Location: FNWA
equipment: Newbie - Keg Boiler & 4" 4 plate glasser

Re: Changing ph

Postby db1979 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:08 pm

I'd give up on kale mate.
db1979
 
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: South of the big smoke in banana bender land.
equipment: Eve - 4" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (sieve plates), 330 mm packed section on a keg boiler with 2 x 2000 W elements.
Currently having a makeover: 2" x 4 plate solid state bubbler (1" bubble caps, no sight glasses...maybe not for much longer!) on a bain-marie boiler.

Re: Changing ph

Postby Teddysad » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:59 pm

a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash
Teddysad
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Location: Canterbury NZ
equipment: FSD 4"SSG with packed column 50l Boiler keg. Alex 25 for smaller scale runs

Re: Changing ph

Postby EziTasting » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:23 pm

Teddysad wrote:a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash


Haha, yours already has my vote! Love you’re FFV, both for the speed and the cleanliness of the final product!

db1979 wrote:I'd give up on kale mate.

I am hearing you! aaaand I am 75% of the way there... just hate that I can’t beat it!
EziTasting
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:15 pm
Location: FNWA
equipment: Newbie - Keg Boiler & 4" 4 plate glasser

Re: Changing ph

Postby warramungas » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:51 pm

Something ive noticed whenmessing with ph is it seems to take a lot more hydroxide to neutralize H+ than you think you'll need. Its not a teaspoon full every now and then. A teaspoon of lye in water makes a huge difference as nothingis there to counteract it but in an acid solution it has less of an effect as its consumed.
I cant be naffed trying to figure out how much caco3 you'll need to raise a 25 liter wash from a 3.2 pH back to a 5ish (had a few too many carlton drys) but Im betting more than you think and like a tea bag would probably need some form of occassional agitation to mix through and dissolve properly unless in a very finely powdered state. Probably need a good stir then as well.
warramungas
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Nor Perth
equipment: 180 litre fermenter x 2
30 liter boiler
PDA-1
2" four plate modular bubbler
2" one meter long LM column
110 liter boiler with 25 liter (max) inline thumper
4" x 4 plate bubble cap still

Re: Changing ph

Postby warramungas » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:26 pm

EziTasting wrote:
db1979 wrote:Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.


I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).
db1979 wrote:Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(


Missed this. Thats the solubility of caco3 in pure water at equilibrium. 0.025 grams per liter which is roughly 0.625 grams for 25 liters @7 ph.
Im guessing from previous mucking around with acids youll probably be talking a kg+ to dissolve to drive the ph from 3 to 5. If you put some in and it has FULLY dissolved and your pH is still low you have yet to add enough. Emphasis on dissolved as undissolved solids have no effect on pH.
warramungas
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Nor Perth
equipment: 180 litre fermenter x 2
30 liter boiler
PDA-1
2" four plate modular bubbler
2" one meter long LM column
110 liter boiler with 25 liter (max) inline thumper
4" x 4 plate bubble cap still

Re: Changing ph

Postby warramungas » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm

EziTasting wrote:
db1979 wrote:Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.


I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).
db1979 wrote:Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(


Reasonably sober now. Did a few calculations and to fully neutralize the acid H+ in 25 liters of 3.2 pH wash you need to dissolve about 1.26 kg of caco3. This just neutralizes what acid is there and not any more that may be still being produced if the wash takes off again so you would probably want around 1.5 kg to be in excess. This is only a roughy simple calc as i didnt take into account further carbonic acid production from the co2 produced by the reaction itself.
Cheers.
Warra
warramungas
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Nor Perth
equipment: 180 litre fermenter x 2
30 liter boiler
PDA-1
2" four plate modular bubbler
2" one meter long LM column
110 liter boiler with 25 liter (max) inline thumper
4" x 4 plate bubble cap still

Re: Changing ph

Postby Amberale » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm

Teddysad wrote:a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash


I’m also loving your FFV.
The recipe says to adjust the PH to around 5 with citric acid.
I find that this then drops to 3.5ish after 24 hours.
This still ferments out so I haven’t experimented with starting higher, should I?
Thanks
Amberale
 
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:47 pm
Location: Bacchus Marsh(ish)
equipment: 5* Neutraliser.

Re: Changing ph

Postby Teddysad » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:09 pm

Amberale wrote:[
This still ferments out so I haven’t experimented with starting higher, should I?
Thanks

Thanks for Kudos
I am in recent versions omitting the citric acid and find it finishes nicely at around 4.5

I am also trialling a variation on which I shall report in a couple of weeks
Teddysad
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Location: Canterbury NZ
equipment: FSD 4"SSG with packed column 50l Boiler keg. Alex 25 for smaller scale runs

Next

Return to Beginners Questions



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests

x