Foot whiskey

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Foot whiskey

Postby Maxxx » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:57 pm

Decided to try my very first cornflake whiskey wash, cornflakes sugar and cracked corn, aimed for 10%
Put it down just after Christmas then went OS for two weeks
Returned to find it finished super dry so I assume I hit the 10% easily
Problem is it smells sour, even a little like feet !!!!
Is this normal or is it #ucked?
Should I run it?
Cheers
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby RC Al » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:27 pm

Run it

Just a secondary infection, possibly lacto, one of my last lots came out smelling like bubblegum, stripped and ran it anyway, after a few days the smell went away from the spirit run, but left a hint of flavor, Butyric Acid apparently - good drop as it turns out

Thanks again for the keg :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby The Stig » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:42 pm

Athelet-lacto infection
Careful drinking this stuff , title get you running :laughing-rolling:
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:53 am

RC Al wrote:Run it

Just a secondary infection, possibly lacto, one of my last lots came out smelling like bubblegum, stripped and ran it anyway, after a few days the smell went away from the spirit run, but left a hint of flavor, Butyric Acid apparently - good drop as it turns out

Thanks again for the keg :handgestures-thumbupleft:


Butyric is real obvious when you have it, it smells like spew. It's tasty as all get out for rums when distilled though. It esterifies and becomes Ethyl Butyrate which smells and tastes like ripe juicy pineapple.

For it to smell like feet I'm leaning towards a brett infection

More commonly known as Brett, Brettanomyces is a yeast commonly associated with red wine spoilage. It’s usually pretty obvious when Brett is present, as your wine will smell of barnyard, sweat, gym socks… and those are some of the less offensive descriptors!

quoted from here
https://www.winecompass.com.au/blog/bre ... tanomyces/

This site mentions loads of fruity esters being formed
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces

I'd run it and see what you get.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby RC Al » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:38 am

BSC_Kilby wrote:Butyric is real obvious when you have it, it smells like spew. It's tasty as all get out for rums when distilled though. It esterifies and becomes Ethyl Butyrate which smells and tastes like ripe juicy pineapple.
[/quote]
So what would bubblegum smell/taste be otherwise then? it certainly didnt smell like spew
Last edited by RC Al on Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm

RC Al wrote:
BSC_Kilby wrote:Butyric is real obvious when you have it, it smells like spew. It's tasty as all get out for rums when distilled though. It esterifies and becomes Ethyl Butyrate which smells and tastes like a ripe juicy pineapple.

So what would bubblegum smell/taste be otherwise then? it certainly didn't smell like spew[/quote]


Benzyl acetate, linalool plus a touch of methyl benzoate will give you a bubblegum smell.

Linalool is unlikely and you'd know it as a commonality between the aroma of a big hoppy IPA, Juniper, pine needles and to a lesser extent coriander. Benzyl Acetate can occur in ferment and its aroma is sweet, jasmine, apple, and pear. Methyl Benzonate seems like the more likely culprit, but it sounds like it could be Benzenoic acid rather than the Methylated ester. I can't figure out how you'd have got benzene in the ferment. My understanding is that if it is present that it degrades during fermentation.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:19 pm

I had identical issue as rc we both used same yeast and same style ferment. Safspirit american whiskey is the yeast. Didnt just smell like bubblegum but tasted of it to. Mine after 4ish months has slight vomit odour at times but fades in out (and on right cycle is mighty tasty.

My guess is the bubblegum is an ester formed from butyric infection. I have tasted this before in heads but not hearts.At first I thought I had stuffed my cuts but the taste went right through till tails.

I started over after thourough sanitization and have not had issue return..
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby RC Al » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:30 pm

I Threw some Bakers yeast at mine, my bag of the american yeast dissapeared from the fridge :violence-stickwhack:
After 30pts of sg drop it has no bubblegum flavor yet
On a side note, this was a multigen, backset free wash
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:06 am

bluc wrote:I had identical issue as rc we both used same yeast and same style ferment. Safspirit american whiskey is the yeast. Didnt just smell like bubblegum but tasted of it to. Mine after 4ish months has slight vomit odour at times but fades in out (and on right cycle is mighty tasty.

My guess is the bubblegum is an ester formed from butyric infection. I have tasted this before in heads but not hearts.At first I thought I had stuffed my cuts but the taste went right through till tails.

I started over after thourough sanitization and have not had issue return..


The Butyric will be thrown off as a by-product of the ferm. It may have been the result of the conditions the yeast were in or it could be from a secondary ferm from an infection. I suspect the same could be said for the Benzene and you could have both present in the wash. Considering you both had it with the same yeast and same style ferm is a good clue. High attenuation spirit specific yeast like the american whiskey, are designed, in part, to throw off more esters, particularly with warmer ferms. If the ferm sat for 4 months, it could also be an autolysis driven ester, but I'd expect that to be more present the longer the ferm sat and the yeast was able to break down more.

I love this stuff and I really want to get my head around how you got bubble gum as an ester.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:10 am

With this style the grain sits in fermenter for mknths could the ester be from the grain breaking down in bottom of fermenter? Souring process?
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:45 am

bluc wrote:With this style the grain sits in fermenter for mknths could the ester be from the grain breaking down in bottom of fermenter? Souring process?


So I just found a few tidbits.

The most common ester, isoamyl acetate, which has typical concentrations ranging from 0.25 to 2.0 times its flavor threshold, has a distinctive fruity, sweet aroma that is not that different from some of the sweetened, fruit-flavored breakfast cereals (or bubble gum)

From this website; https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Ester ... nce_Fruity

Isoamyl acetate is an ester of Acetic acid. So it could have been thrown off during ferm, but it seems like you may have an Acetic acid bacteria colony growing in there. That should be pretty easy to verify, you'd have losses of abv% over time and a decrease in pH.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:00 pm

I have been having ph issues for ages but normally it crashs mid ferment. I
I have been having good results finishing the ferment dry by using slacked lime rather then calcium carbonate in recent times.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Acetic acid can be introduced by bar/fruit fly correct? I have been using "s" style air locks they have habit of sucking the content of trap into ferment. Which at times contains those little buggers. I just bought some of the other style air locks will see how they go...apparently they dont suck liquid in..
Last edited by bluc on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm

bluc wrote:I have been having ph issues for ages but normally it crashs mid ferment. I
I have been having good results finishing the ferment dry by using slacked lime rather then calcium carbonate in recent times.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Acetic acid can be introduced by bar/fruit fly correct? I have been using "s" style air locks they have habit of sucking the content of trap into ferment. Which at times contains those little buggers. I just bought some of the other style air locks will see how they go...apparently they dont suck liquid in..


Might be the flies, but it could be anything. Bacteria are everywhere, but they're not generally a problem unless they find an environment to cause havoc in. The confusing bit is that you and RC both had the same issue. You're both relatively close by to each other so it could just be a particular area where there is a lot of acetic acid bacteria floating around. It could have come in on the yeast bag if you're using the same supplier too. Who knows? Hope the air locks sort it.

I get a real kick out of trying to figure these things out.

I also had a look at Lactic bacteria and the types of acids that get thrown off by it. Ethyl lactate has been in a couple of spirits I've worked with. It can be kind of similar to diacetyl in the aroma. It smells like melted butter and tastes a bit like there's been cream or some kind of dairy added to the pot.
Last edited by Sam. on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:50 pm

I was reading about Clostridium butyricum infections and their effect on fermentation ph and their production of butyric acid (which will stall fermentation if in too high concentration) and kinda felt it fit my circumstance. I was also looking at lacto which also drops ph but by everything I read lacto produces favourable enviroment for fermentation. Where mine kept stalling..
Last edited by bluc on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby RC Al » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:14 pm

I got my issues well after bluc did, it happend on aprox gen 6 and after i stopped sealing the drum, its a 120l with a snap clamp that seems to seal too well, it was making the lid bulge and taking ages to ferment (a month) till i stopped sealing it properly (completely against the concept of pressurised fermenting thing ive seen the beer guys use?). around the same time, my rainwater ran out so I was on to Trichlor treated river water that the council calls drinking water :puke-huge: it also moved into summer n that fermenter lives out on my veranda.

Short story with mine, too many variables to nail it down, and ive possibly "ruined" it with the bakers yeast, looks like another week or so til i find out with mine

Sorry for the thread jack Maxxx, but we do seem to be learning stuff, let us know how you go with yours :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:33 pm

Brendan also mentions vomit smell in his sour corn starter thread. Seems is a normal process of corn going sour. Just that my fermentations stopped I have gone to gen 8 multiple times but couldnt progress further..and at one stage even if starting new with fresh grain etc it wouldnt start. Until I sanitized. So its looks like clostidrum or brett both will/can over power yeast fermentations.

Having said that clositrum bacteria is one of the main reasons for dunder pits when making rum, as it creats lots tropical esters..but is usually introduced, inmthe form of infected dunder, right at end of fermentations where it is allowed to consume tha last small amout of sugar..
Last edited by bluc on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby Maxxx » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:37 pm

Thanks guys
I’m actually learning lots and that’s why I’m here.
Will run it over weekend, starsan the fermenter just in case and let you know if I’m game to try it :-D
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby BSC_Kilby » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:41 pm

bluc wrote:Brendan also mentions vomit smell in his sour corn starter thread. Seems is a normal process of corn going sour. Just that my fermentations stopped I have gone to gen 8 multiple times but couldnt progress further..and at one stage even if starting new with fresh grain etc it wouldnt start. Until I sanitized. So its looks like clostidrum or brett both will/can over power yeast fermentations.

Having said that clositrum bacteria is one of the main reasons for dunder pits when making rum, as it creats lots tropical esters..but is usually introduced, inmthe form of infected dunder, right at end of fermentations where it is allowed to consume tha last small amout of sugar..


Dunder is such a weird world (I love big hogo rums).

The link here is for an article on Muck vs Dunder and I'm sure it varies for each distillery, but Hampden is adding spent pot ale into the next ferments, but I'm pretty sure the muck goes straight to the still and the bacteria that are present in it are not involved in fermentation of the wash only giving a good dose of acids to increase the ester count.

https://cocktailwonk.com/2016/03/days-o ... dient.html
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby RC Al » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:22 pm

Found this guide via a HD link
vomit, sweat socks n Bubblegum aint on it :handgestures-thumbdown:
https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpr ... smells.jpg
Image
Last edited by RC Al on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foot whiskey

Postby bluc » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:20 pm

Vomit comes under butonate. Pineapple esters created :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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