Starting a Microdistillery - TIPS

[db1979]

It'd be nice if he at least gave us some credit for the recipes he's copy and pasted from here :think:

There ARE actually laws in Australia about that. But as with many things the cost of pursuing at law is ridiculous.
In any event he is very naughty. :handgestures-thumbdown:

Looks like his distillery is closed now.

[Sam.]

It'd be nice if he at least gave us some credit for the recipes he's copy and pasted from here :think:

There ARE actually laws in Australia about that. But as with many things the cost of pursuing at law is ridiculous.
In any event he is very naughty. :handgestures-thumbdown:

Looks like his distillery is closed now.

I believe this is the latest evolution of the same bloke https://www.newcastledistillery.com.au/ :-B

[scythe]

Also if your looking to buy his barrels of whiskey the best value option is the 100L barrel.

Good luck to them.

[Markbass]

I have wondered about the licencing requirements of being able to demonstrate skills and experience in distillation. I'm betting the licencing mob won't be too happy if they hear "oh yeah no worries, I've got this illegal still at home that I've been using for the last few years". :laughing-rolling: be like rocking up to get a car licence when you drove yourself there in an unregistered vehicle you made yourself.

Other than industry experience, what other options are there? I'm betting none. :think:

One of the onerous restrictions that Customs and Excise use to control the licensing of distilling is the competency requirement. There is a very simple way around this. If you have worked at a licenced distillery and have been certified a competent distiller they cannot knock you back on this count...for your information I have a batchelor of vocational education and training (Charles Sturt Uni) which is current and I am a licenced distiller with an unlimited licence ( any volume any product ) If anyone needs to be certified. I am willing to help. It is not easy. but truthfully guys it is quite possible to overcome these hurdles. I do not want a rush of tyre kickers...but if it is your dream to distill the industry needs inovative driven people to build craft distilling...I can and will help if possible. The minimum requirement is a short intensive period of shadowing with certification of demonstrated individual skill. Simply you have to complete the whole process from wash to spirit run and be certified as having not killed anyone including yourself in the process. This is a path not for everyone. They make it hard. But it can be done. Never ever say that you distill anywhere but at a licenced distillery, as it will preclude your getting a licence.
Doc

Hi Doc, I am still fairly new to all this and I am very much in the planning stages, ultimately I would like to end up with an excise license some where in the next two to three years. The view is to run a small hobbie business going into semi retirement, making and entering whiskey into competitions. I would love to pick your brains on the excise application process, to me it looks like a pretty straight forward business case type of application. From what I can tell the only area I won’t pass on would be the experience...

[the Doctor]

Markbass PM me some time we will talk.
Doc

[warramungas]

I think microdistilierues should get tax relief personally.
You go to markets and see distilleries pushing their product and its got a $30-$40 premium over the mass produced imported stuff.
Should be up to a certain volume of alcohol produced you get 50% tax relief then it could incrementally increase (without killing them) as production ramps up and the distillery starts to become more profitable. This should apply across the board as major distilleries overseas producing millions (???) of liters would remain unaffected.
Many australian boutique products Ive seen Ive just about had a heart attack at the price and i have to reeeeeally love it to buy a bottle as i can get imported stuff cheaper.

[db1979]

I think microdistilierues should get tax relief personally.
You go to markets and see distilleries pushing their product and its got a $30-$40 premium over the mass produced imported stuff.
Should be up to a certain volume of alcohol produced you get 50% tax relief then it could incrementally increase (without killing them) as production ramps up and the distillery starts to become more profitable. This should apply across the board as major distilleries overseas producing millions (???) of liters would remain unaffected.
Many australian boutique products Ive seen Ive just about had a heart attack at the price and i have to reeeeeally love it to buy a bottle as i can get imported stuff cheaper.

I think this did happen a year or two ago :think:

[BSC_Kilby]

There's a lot of really great info in this thread around the tax side of things, but the bigger and more complex hurdles in my experience are the storage and handling of flammable goods. The laws around this are mainly written for refineries but are applicable to any scale of the distillery. There's confusion amongst people in the industry from suppliers to work safe, but if you can get copies of the ADG code and the AS/NZS 1940 - 2017 standard for the storage and handling of flammable goods, you'll be fairly well informed. There's also a standard for electrical installations and equipment in explosive environments that is relevant to flammable goods, but a good sparky should be across what can be done once you have a hazardous area inspection and report compiled. These reports and often the works and equipment they demand are expensive. The distillery I work out of now was ordered to install a vapor scavenger (a big exhaust) for our bottling which was $25k and we're small to medium-sized craft distillery.

[Sam.]

There's a lot of really great info in this thread around the tax side of things, but the bigger and more complex hurdles in my experience are the storage and handling of flammable goods. The laws around this are mainly written for refineries but are applicable to any scale of the distillery. There's confusion amongst people in the industry from suppliers to work safe, but if you can get copies of the ADG code and the AS/NZS 1940 - 2017 standard for the storage and handling of flammable goods, you'll be fairly well informed. There's also a standard for electrical installations and equipment in explosive environments that is relevant to flammable goods, but a good sparky should be across what can be done once you have a hazardous area inspection and report compiled. These reports and often the works and equipment they demand are expensive. The distillery I work out of now was ordered to install a vapor scavenger (a big exhaust) for our bottling which was $25k and we're small to medium-sized craft distillery.

Do you class your distillery as an explosive environment? Do you use a gas detector to confirm this?

[BSC_Kilby]

There's a lot of really great info in this thread around the tax side of things, but the bigger and more complex hurdles in my experience are the storage and handling of flammable goods. The laws around this are mainly written for refineries but are applicable to any scale of the distillery. There's confusion amongst people in the industry from suppliers to work safe, but if you can get copies of the ADG code and the AS/NZS 1940 - 2017 standard for the storage and handling of flammable goods, you'll be fairly well informed. There's also a standard for electrical installations and equipment in explosive environments that is relevant to flammable goods, but a good sparky should be across what can be done once you have a hazardous area inspection and report compiled. These reports and often the works and equipment they demand are expensive. The distillery I work out of now was ordered to install a vapor scavenger (a big exhaust) for our bottling which was $25k and we're small to medium-sized craft distillery.

Do you class your distillery as an explosive environment? Do you use a gas detector to confirm this?

Hey Sam,

All distilleries are classed as explosive environments. Ethanol as the primary product is explosive in its vapor state at relatively low temps. The area around a grist mill is also an explosive environment, which is an additional risk factor for whisky production.

It specifically lists distilleries in AS/NZS 1940 - 2017. I think the thing to keep in mind is that as far as the law goes, the potential for the accumulation of vapor is the risk that deems it a hazardous area, not the specific presence of vapor. It gives some guidance on when flammable liquids are not a risk. It says something along the lines of the concentration of a flammable liquid that is fully miscible in water, where it says that water makes up at least 90% of the solution.

[Sam.]

How does it get classed an explosive atmosphere if it's not measured?

Unless your still is doing a spirit run 24/7 then the distillery won't be hazardous for the majority of the time I would have thought?

What state are you operating in? I assume there could be some differences between each states safe work departments...

[BSC_Kilby]

How does it get classed an explosive atmosphere if it's not measured?

Unless your still is doing a spirit run 24/7 then the distillery won't be hazardous for the majority of the time I would have thought?

What state are you operating in? I assume there could be some differences between each states safe work departments...

I'm in Vic, but I've spoken to suppliers who operate across the country who're dealing with the same regs.

It's calculated not measured. The haz area assessment needs to be completed before electrical equipment can be installed or it's just guesswork which creates the risk that worksafe walk in and decide to shut you down. The things they take into account are the volume of ethanol you can potentially store, the concentrations you're likely to be holding, the activities in the space (for the last assessment I went through, bottling was listed as the highest risk activity) and the size of the space you're operating in. So if for example you've got 4 x 100L storage tanks and a 200L still and you'll be diluting to load the still or bottle, distilling, blending, you're planning on holding 200L at 95% as your maximum and your space is 40 cubic metres, the inspector has formulas to calculate the volume of potential vapor you can produce and how much air needs to be displaced from the building in order to remove/reduce the risk of explosion.

There's also quite a bit of confusion aorund the certification for electriacl equip in explosive environments. ATEX is no good in Aus basically.

[Dan54]

Hi Guys, I'm considering going down the route of applying for a license but have little to no experience for the application. What processes have other people gone down? Are there courses that can be undertaken? Cheers, Dan

[bluc]

I would think barrel ageing in a rickhouse to be a bigger hazzard then the still.. :think:
Naturally thinking of a micro distillery. Big boys the still would be processing a lot more vapour at any given time then their rickhouse...or maybe not..

[Doubleuj]

Hi Guys, I'm considering going down the route of applying for a license but have little to no experience for the application. What processes have other people gone down? Are there courses that can be undertaken? Cheers, Dan

Hi Dan, first port of call would be to post up thread in the welcome centre :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Then, caution is my next step, you say you have little to no experience, it’s not easy to produce a product that is sellable.

[Professor Green]

:text-+1:

If you have no experience at all it's going to be difficult as the ATO will probably require some sort of proof that you know what you're doing and they'll also want to know that you have all the necessary council approvals in place too.

If you're really set on going commercial, I would recommend taking a certified distilling course to start with.

Cheers,
Prof. Green.

[Dan54]

Thanks for the tips guys, I’ll look into the courses!

[BSC_Kilby]

I would think barrel ageing in a rickhouse to be a bigger hazzard then the still.. :think:
Naturally thinking of a micro distillery. Big boys the still would be processing a lot more vapour at any given time then their rickhouse...or maybe not..

That's exactly right. There are some exemptions when it comes to barrels, but a rickhouse would be one of the most naturally hazardous environments in spirits production. And in Australia for something the size of the stuff you see in the states, you'd have multiple vapor scavengers running (big exhausts specifically for explosive vapor) and ethanol vapor sensors set for the limit, which is 5% of the lower explosive limit (LEL), which is 3.1% per cubic meter for the building.

And yes a micro-distillery is absolutely going to be less vapor than a mega-complex like Wilmar or Tarac. But it's still classified as a hazardous area and subject to the same code as a refinery, for what size, style and location for storage vessels, and electrical components and wiring.

[bluc]

:handgestures-thumbupleft:

[wynnum1]

:text-+1:

If you have no experience at all it's going to be difficult as the ATO will probably require some sort of proof that you know what you're doing and they'll also want to know that you have all the necessary council approvals in place too.

If you're really set on going commercial, I would recommend taking a certified distilling course to start with.

Cheers,
Prof. Green.

When does the money get paid to the government for what is produced .and what security is needed. to stop it disappearing.
.