Food for thought...

[Frothwizard]

Argument or debate, I still think it's healthy.

Everyone's got their ways and their reasons, and we learn from hearing them.

Good discussion guys :smile:

And for the record, I'd have a steam jacketed boiler if I could!

Steam created from gas or electric? :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

[baysidebogan]

Electricity can be safe...so why can't we get our electric "Crab boilers " tag tested ?...no excuse if we want it to be safe

When you come up with a reasonable explanation of how the fuck the crabs fit through the 2 inch gap in my keg boiler, I`ll get it tag tested :laughing-rolling:
I used to build and repair the gas regulators used in homes. People cook with gas all the time. More houses burn down through faulty wiring or overloading than burn because of gas explosion

[Frothwizard]

Electricity can be safe...so why can't we get our electric "Crab boilers " tag tested ?...no excuse if we want it to be safe

When you come up with a reasonable explanation of how the fuck the crabs fit through the 2 inch gap in my keg boiler, I`ll get it tag tested :laughing-rolling:
I used to build and repair the gas regulators used in homes. People cook with gas all the time. More houses burn down through faulty wiring or overloading than burn because of gas explosion

You're almost certainly right. However we're not talking about the inherent safety of gas / electricity in general, we're talking about it with regards to alcohol liquid / vapor spraying out of your still. If alcohol wasn't flammable but still had all the same delicious properties, chances are I'd be running on gas too...

[Brendan]

People cook with gas all the time. More houses burn down through faulty wiring or overloading than burn because of gas explosion

You are right, but people cooking in their homes don't have open vessels of 95%abv ethanol, or vapour in the air,
around a naked flame because of that use of gas...I see your downsides to elec as well, but just throwing it in there for healthy debate :D

edit: posted same time as the Frothman

[MacStill]

I just dont get the whole gas v leccy thing, isnt it just common sense that a properly wired element protected by an RCD/circuit breaker is safer than any naked flame.... :wtf:

Having being unlucky enough to experience a still fire due to gas myself, all I can say is "f##k gas" ..... had I been on a leccy boiler my whole day would've been a lot better ;-)

I'm not saying people using gas are doing the wrong thing, just letting my thoughts be known :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

In my opinion...a lot of the negative arguments toward elec seem to be centred around electrocution and dodgy wiring faults...that's not something that someone should be 'mitigating' on a daily running basis. You have your home wiring, element install, element and controller wiring all done by an electrician and where is the problem? You plug it in, it works...

If there is a wiring fault, your RCD will trip as opposed to having a live boiler (wtf? :wtf: ).

To me it essentially sounds like using a kettle to boil water, you plug the cord in and switch it on...you can also boil water in a pot on a gas stove...now replace the water with ethanol ;-)

[TheMechwarrior]

This kinda reminds me of the Fords versus Holdens debate :ugeek:

I thought Ford won when Holden got shoved outta town :P

I thought Ford put up the white flag first?

With sufficient levels of control both energy sources can be rendered relatively safe.
To each his own.

And whatever you do, think safety first.

[mymumsaidimcool]

for the moment, a gas setup was quicker, cheaper and easier to get me started, i use only an open area with only a roof and a few posts that would stop wind,
as you said i mitigate all i can, i keep the bottle as far away as i can (1.2m - hose length) and i sit well back while it's doing it's thing and only come closer to be able to take cuts, as my still runs alot slower than others, taking cuts isnt a 20 second job, it might take a min (for each bottle for cuts) so i'm keeping out of the way.

i also do not have the money nor the experience to have my boiler welded at the moment, maybe a weldless elment is the key here although i havent looked into it as yet, and again money isnt as free as i'd like it to be.

so until that all changes i'll have to use the somewhat more dangerous method of using gas.

and dont flame me for doing so, it's my choice to do so. and i'll go electric when i damn well can.

[mymumsaidimcool]

People cook with gas all the time. More houses burn down through faulty wiring or overloading than burn because of gas explosion

You are right, but people cooking in their homes don't have open vessels of 95%abv ethanol, or vapour in the air,
around a naked flame because of that use of gas...I see your downsides to elec as well, but just throwing it in there for healthy debate :D

edit: posted same time as the Frothman

and also the amount of houses that are wired up in aus is what 10 million or more + businesses and all sorts... the amount for gas is a shit load less - so to use that argument that "more electric problems than gas" is a little invalid given the scale difference.

[Dominator]

Good discussion blokes, great to see it hasn't gone south yet. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

For me, going electric was a no brainer. Having an electrical trade background meant I could do the work myself. I think a large part of the appeal of gas is the cost, or lack of, and the simplicity. No drilling holes or welding kegs, no need for upgraded wiring or power controllers and to some people electricity can be a bit of dangerous dark magic. Where as gas is as simple as a bottle, hose, burner, light it and you have heat. You can see/hear/feel it. Yes if you have a leak/puke there is a very real risk of fire but with the right precautions this risk can be controlled.

In regards to electric I will offer some warnings. Do not think because you have an RCD that you are safe. Relying on an RCD is like not wearing a seat belt because your car has airbags. RCD are fallable and can fail. They are designed to trip at 30mA, however 25mA still hurts and in the right conditions could kill you. Just like gas users check bottles, regs and hoses before every run, so should electric users check plugs, leads and connections. And don't think because you don't have a naked flame that there is not an ignition source. Every time you switch a power point on/off there is an arc/spark. If you have a fridge in your shed/brew area, every time the compressor turns on there is a spark.

I guess there will always be risks no matter what you use. Taking the right precautions to mitigate those risks is where the differences lay. You wouldn't use your electric element if the cord was damaged same as your not going to use a gas hose that is leaking. If you bust a cooling hose and water is spraying everywhere your gonna shut the power off, if your still has a leak your going to shut the gas off as fast as you can. For me, the day my bubbler flooded and puked high proof alcohol all over the place I was thanking my lucky stars that I was not running on gas.

[crow]

In my opinion...a lot of the negative arguments toward elec seem to be centred around electrocution and dodgy wiring faults...that's not something that someone should be 'mitigating' on a daily running basis. You have your home wiring, element install, element and controller wiring all done by an electrician and where is the problem? You plug it in, it works...
Yes and all the negative arguments about gas involve leaking stills, bad connections or unattended stills
If there is a wiring fault, your RCD will trip as opposed to having a live boiler (wtf? :wtf: ).
Too right and if ya have a significant leak why piss around with paste ect
To me it essentially sounds like using a kettle to boil water, you plug the cord in and switch it on...you can also boil water in a pot on a gas stove...now replace the water with ethanol ;-)

So you would be comfortable boiling a pot of ethanol on ya kitchen stove with ya boiler?
As I already said electrical elements are a good way to go and reduce the risk of combustion but it is not an option for everyone and gas ran properly and not a problem, This debate started by alluding to it being so and that is simply on its own not factual :twocents-mytwocents:

[Brendan]

I definitely see your point Crow.

Regarding your gas negatives, I think the elec crew normally see as accidentally knocking over a collection vessel, and puking stills (and leaking stills yes), neither of which I've ever done so of course it always comes down to your own due diligence to keep everything operating optimally.

Dominator raises a good point with regards to RCDs too; it can be too late when they trip. For those using elec and aren't overly versed in electrical safety, there are a few guidelines that I follow to keep everything where I am comfortable...I only use 15A cable (one with a 10A plug, making it the 'weak' point as such). With two 2400W elements I run one flat out on a 15A circuit, and I run the other through a controller on a 10A circuit, therefore even at max I am running at 10A on a 15A cct, and about 7A on a 10A cct, so the wiring and cct hardware is never listed to its capacity. I also always check my earths before running out of habit; just a simple continuity check with the multimeter between the earth plug and points all over the boiler and column. And lastly out I habit, I'm always feeling my power cables to ensure they are not getting warm...they don't but it comes from habit from running keg king elements a few years ago :shock:

[crow]

Personally I don't collect near my heat source, never did so puking and spilled alcohol could never be an issue. I have never understood why some people collect over or near a flame, seems a no brainer to me to keep flammable liquid away from a flame. When I pot stilled my leibig was just under 6 ft and there are pictures around that show my bubbler collection is quite away from my burner. This is just common sense to me :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[mickiboi]

If you have an RCD/ELCB on your electricity supply then the chances are practically zero from dying of electrocution. Stupid me was calibrating some 240V powered CO2 detectors for a friend. In order to calibrate the sensor to atmosphere I had to remove the sensor from the backing plate and flick a few DIP switches and put the sensor on the back plate to power it up again. Being smarter than I thought I was, I used a key on my key ring instead of an insulated screwdriver (or even turning the power off DOH) to poke into the side of the back plate to release the sensor and yep you guessed it, the key touched a component with 240V on it. I got a tiny shock and the RCD tripped the house. Now 20 years ago we didn't have these devices and I would be dead. To make matters worse I was in bare feet.

I don't think you get that luxury with gas. But I guess if you take all the precautions then one should be no more dangerous than the other.

I know what happened was my fault that nearly killed me, I should have known better, I'm and electrician and electronic engineer. But it shows how complacent we become when familiarity creeps in. Its the old saying,"familiarity breeds contempt".

I think the safest way is to heat a boiler is with a steam generator located in another shed or even outside.

So there, I am an idiot and I should have known better.

Mick

[dogbreath vodka]

Always wanted to build a steam boiler.
Looked into it and if you go with high pressure they are more dangerous than either gas or electricity.

Again horses for courses.

DBV

[1 2many]

Think I will take a quick left before the BIG ROUNDABOUT :scared-shocked: :violence-duel: :angry-extinguishflame:

[mickiboi]

I have plans if your interested.

[dogbreath vodka]

I have plans if your interested.

Sounds good to me
Any chance of a PM regarding the plans?

DBV

[rickyd]

I considered gas when doing my setups as they all use 50 litre or larger kegs but discounted it'
I am always spilling stuff knocking stuff over and the idea of open flame round me grog well naaa
I went with no weld 30 mm 3000 watt electrics. They cost me about $30 a piece but I have found em to be temperamental and as such I always have a couple spare on hand. See they blow just like a big fuse whenever the hell they feel like it.

[MacStill]

I considered gas when doing my setups as they all use 50 litre or larger kegs but discounted it'
I am always spilling stuff knocking stuff over and the idea of open flame round me grog well naaa
I went with no weld 30 mm 3000 watt electrics. They cost me about $30 a piece but I have found em to be temperamental and as such I always have a couple spare on hand. See they blow just like a big fuse whenever the hell they feel like it.

Yep! that's why we will always have hassles getting this hobby legal..... a perfect example :doh: