Bourbon AG and TPW

[Westshine]

I did a large run of AG bourbon, 85% corn and %15 rye. I put it through two bubble plates and collected an average of 85% ABV when done.

I ran the heads reasonably slow, but pushed the rest through pretty hard. To be honest is was rubbish, tasted like tails through the hearts and I couldn't find any that I liked.

I ended up with about 25litrs of this rubbish, very upset as this was a lot of work to produce.

So wondering what to do I made another 100L of corn/rye mash and put it all together and ran the lot through my pot still, really slow. It came out with oil, grunge, character, mmm just lovely.

This got me to wonder, it's a hell of a lot of work boiling, fermenting and straining corn mashes. So if I ran a few TPW/FFV neutrals through my bubbler, then throw that into a corn/rye mash, put it into the pot still would I get a product as good?

Anyone had experience with this?

[bluc]

Run it again do better cuts sperate the tails...I tend to not look for what I want when I do cuts rather I look for what I dont want. I find good whiskey is pretty neutral with raw corn and or malt taste. The "burbon" or "whiskey" taste come with time on oak..and I always run 4 plates average abv 88%

[Westshine]

Bluc, I defiantly think my running the still too hard (due to impatience) effected the end product. I might give it a go at a later date using the plates but will slow it all down.

However AG with corn is hard work, i'm using steamed corn but still need to soak in boiling water for 12 hours, adjusting temp and then adding malt and enzyme, adjusting temp and adding yeast. This takes days, not to mention the several hours it takes to strain out 200l of wash. I smell like corn for days.

I generally do a AG wash to about 6%, I find it has less problems all round. If I have enough TPW neutral to bump it up to ~30% ABV then run the lot through a pot still as a spirit run, I'd hope to reduce my efforts while still getting a reasonable AG result.

[bluc]

Have look at how I did corn in my whiskey all grain thread, corn as long as you get good gelatinization you get good results..you dong have to use enzymes you cant still use malt for conversion. Then sparge rather than ferment on the grain, saves all that squeezing..

[Georgio]

i'm using steamed corn but still need to soak in boiling water for 12 hours

What brand of steamed corn are you using? I have been using Crisp Flaked Maize and have not needed to boil, just mash in at around 70ish degrees and seems to work just fine.

[Westshine]

Georgio, I'm using a stock feed called "flaked maze" but it's not what distillers would call flaked maze. It's pretty much just rolled steamed corn I get it from the local stock and station, I think this brand was Thompson and Reed. It's real cheap about $25 for 20kg, it needs to be further milled but it doesn't need to be boiled, just a long soak in boiling water to gelatinise.

The distillers flaked maze looks like mini corn flakes, turns to mush in a lukewarm bath, but can cost over $100 for a 25kg bag when you can get it.

Bluc, I'm fermenting on the grain as I believe I'm getting a better conversion, perhaps I'm not? I haven't done the sparge comparison.

I do get a really nice oily slick on top of the mash at the end, I wonder if I would get as much oil out of the grain if I sparge? Running it through the pot still fills the garage with the smell of caramelised corn, it's mouth watering.

I'm going to have to run the experiment, it'll take a few months to prepare, the plan is:

1) Ferment and distill out 2 x 190ltr TPW
2) 13kg of "flaked maze", 3 kg distiller malt rye, 3 kg of medium peated malt barley. Aiming for around 80l wash after straining out.

I should end up with about 24 litres @ 93% ABV (heads & tails removed) TPW, combine with 80 litres of 6% corn/rye/barley wash. (Someone could do the math and see if my grain bill works, I usually just wing it).

I'll load it all into the boiler with 4" pot still, no scrubbers and run it real slow.

[woodduck]

I can't help with the ag stuff sorry but just remember rye can be a bit funky/overpowering to start with it needs time on oak to mellow out.

[Georgio]

Rye can definitely be rough when freshly stilled, I find it takes a little while to mellow. Usually find it comes across as peppery tails sort of taste. I find it takes 4 ish weeks for that flavour to start to smooth.

[Georgio]

I have also done a fair bit of AG this last year or so and have found that 4 plates through the bubbler, pushed hard, for an ABV of 88ish is where I am most happy. The product is drinkable in a very short time. I have some heavilly peated AG that was pot stilled. I intentionally pushed the still harder to smear early tails into the hearts. ABV was 78ish overall. I managed to get the peat flavour through in the tails. It didnt taste that flash when i blended the cuts back. It is now 12 months old on ex bourbon staves and still tastes tailsy but has improved markedly. I think the more character (tails, oils etc...) you include the more patient you have to be.

If you are going mix TPW into your ag wash have you considered just spiking your all grain mash with dextrose to simply increase vol and output? I have tried this and provided you dont go to hard with sugar still produced a malt type whiskey that I couldnt tell the difference between adding sugar or not.

[scythe]

If your going to mix a neutral spirit with a wiskey wash to boost the %ABV I would go with CFW or NGW as they shouldn't add any different flavours or mouthfeels.

[Westshine]

I finally got to complete this experiment, it wasn't overly scientific I fermented out 75 litres of a rye whiskey mash with some medium peated barley. Found about 7 litres of AG corn tails, 3 litres of AG corn stripping run and rounded up about 15 litres of TPW and FFV (heart cut). All mixed together it measured just short of 30% ABV.

Thew it all in the boiler with my 4" pot still and stuck 2" of copper scrubber in for good measure.

I didn't do a stripping run, just jumped straight into a spirit run and ran it slow all day.

Not sure if anyone else gets this but I can tell a sugar wash from an AG pretty easy (well I like to think I can), it doesn't taste like sugar wash. Will need a few weeks on oak before I give it a side by side comparison with other AG's, it's a lot easier than doing several AG's for the same volume.

I had 30 lites of corn wash with the grain in from a prior ferment, I was going to put the fresh rye wash in with this to ferment out. I thought it would add the corn oils etc. But when I opened up the fermenter it had a carpet of bacteria on top. The smell wasn't overly bad so I boiled up 10 litres and added it to the clean rye whiskey wash before I fermented it out. So it's a hodge podge of grains and process, probably un repeatable.

I know rye can be funky when freshly distilled, this was a bit spiky but drinkable.