Experiments with Angel yeast yellow label

[Wellsy]

I have not get any answers Bman as I have only done a couple of runs. I thought I would mention that this yeast contains enzymes to breaks down the starch in the grains. So while the yeast might stay alive in a second generation you will need to add new yeast as the enzymes will have expired after doing their work on the first generation.

Apologies if you had already thought of this.

[chipboy]

I have a mate doing an experiment now with this, discussed whilst cutting holes to make a pot last weekend. Wild Turkey recipe, grains double ground to fine and put in with cold water and Angel yeast. It will be very interested in how this comes out, off like a rocket is the report.

[howard]

i have wondered about YL, and if the yeast & enzymes would work on another batch.
i found this mentioned a couple of times after a search, they seem to know what they are talking about...
"After an enzyme breaks down a starch molecule, it catalyzes the hydrolysis of the starch into simpler sugars such as maltose, glucose, and dextrins. The enzyme remains unchanged after the reaction and can continue to catalyze the breakdown of more starch molecules. This ability of enzymes to catalyze multiple reactions without being consumed in the process is a key feature of their function."
"Like most enzymes, amylase keeps catalyzing the same reaction (bond hydrolysis) over and over until the substrate runs out or the enzyme becomes damaged by heat or other factors"
if it's true, and you keep the yeasties happy, it sounds like generations are possible.

[B-Man]

I have not get any answers Bman as I have only done a couple of runs. I thought I would mention that this yeast contains enzymes to breaks down the starch in the grains. So while the yeast might stay alive in a second generation you will need to add new yeast as the enzymes will have expired after doing their work on the first generation.

Apologies if you had already thought of this.

I hadn't thought of that TBH. Although with the mash seemingly fermenting again after adding some water to cover the corn I had assumed that the enzymes were still working and that the corn had just settled and they couldn't get to the rest of the corn....

[chipboy]

On the assumption that they are all still present.

One issue is that you removed a large % of the previous volume and what % of these catalysts went with that? Essentially the concentration will decrease, how much is anyone's guess. I suppose if they are relatively heavy in regards to water then they may reside on the bottom.

The yeast does reside on the bottom as I just emptied a batch using yellow angel and the bottom was grey sludge not brown under the grains.

Needless the old grain and 8kg of raw sugar went in with water and its off again!

[howard]

On the assumption that they are all still present.

One issue is that you removed a large % of the previous volume and what % of these catalysts went with that? Essentially the concentration will decrease, how much is anyone's guess. I suppose if they are relatively heavy in regards to water then they may reside on the bottom.

The yeast does reside on the bottom as I just emptied a batch using yellow angel and the bottom was grey sludge not brown under the grains.

Needless the old grain and 8kg of raw sugar went in with water and its off again!

good point chipboy.
i don't think enzymes multiply like yeast and i don't know if they sink or swim either.
they reckon that enzymes are soluble in water, so you are probably correct in saying that they are lost when you empty the ferment.
the few remaining enzymes would still work away, but take forever to chew through the next lot of starch.

i think most dead or dormant yeast sink to the bottom but there is still live yeast in suspension at the end of a ferment.
that's what i used to carbonate beer bottles when i added priming sugar (i use kegs now)

[chipboy]

No enzymes do not multiple and like the first law of thermodynamics, enzymes are neither created or destroyed in a mash!

I loved organic chemistry at school and its led to a few things. This amongst them.

[B-Man]

How do you know when it's done? I've had a 23L 7kg crushed wheat mash going for about 1.5 months and it's still bubbling out of the airlock. Don't know if it's just releasing some of the dissolved co2 or it's still actively fermenting :think:

[chipboy]

Measure sg. Should be close to or less than 1, but if close and does not change over 3 successive measurements each day then consider it done. Bear in mind the nature of material being fermented will affect duration, If super fine then it would stop, if course it will slowly pull it apart and drag on.

[B-Man]

Wouldn't it always be close to 1 since it's starch not sugar? And the enzymes are doing the work on the go?
I wasn't aware you could measure the sg when using this yeast?

[chipboy]

The enzymes break down long chain sugars = starch and are not used up, SG is a measure of gravity and as alcohol is present it might be < 1 or close to, Yes you can do SG, the starches are broken down inot successively small chunks until the the yeast (Dry Active Distillers Yeast) DADY does its work By the way DADY is the yeast in the dreaded Turbo Yeasts.

[oddian]

How do you know when it's done? I've had a 23L 7kg crushed wheat mash going for about 1.5 months and it's still bubbling out of the airlock. Don't know if it's just releasing some of the dissolved co2 or it's still actively fermenting :think:

Sorry a little late on replying to this one. AY tends to create a head of your grains on top of your fermenter and when it's done for me it still bubbles really slowly even though it's done. I usually just wait until the head has dropped down and you've got yellow (probably a different colour for wheat but I've heard purple is likely?) murky liquid on top instead of the head and then run it after straining. I get an excellent yield from oats, I'm sure it'll be the same from wheat. 1.5 months is super long. I ferment at 30C, which might be a little quicker.

[B-Man]

Sorry a little late on replying to this one. AY tends to create a head of your grains on top of your fermenter and when it's done for me it still bubbles really slowly even though it's done. I usually just wait until the head has dropped down and you've got yellow (probably a different colour for wheat but I've heard purple is likely?) murky liquid on top instead of the head and then run it after straining. I get an excellent yield from oats, I'm sure it'll be the same from wheat. 1.5 months is super long. I ferment at 30C, which might be a little quicker.

I ended up just running it.
I had a guess at volume... only ended up with about 13L
Rough guess was it ended up about a 9% mash.

I had ran some corn through the still before and the first part of the run smelt like corn.... don't know if its from the still or the wheat has a similar smell.

I have some more corn to run through soon and then a rum aswell but waiting to do that last as I don't feel like cleaning it after running the molasses to do the other stuff

[oddian]

I ended up just running it.
I had a guess at volume... only ended up with about 13L
Rough guess was it ended up about a 9% mash.

I had ran some corn through the still before and the first part of the run smelt like corn.... don't know if its from the still or the wheat has a similar smell.

I have some more corn to run through soon and then a rum aswell but waiting to do that last as I don't feel like cleaning it after running the molasses to do the other stuff

Wow 13L from a 23L mash is huge, I run 30L and my best run on stripping is about 8-10L and 2L Spirit run at around 70% once all is said and done but I don't have a great big still so I'm usually happy with that. I assume 13L is your stripping run? What % do you stop at? I go all the way down to 5% on my stripping run and then take cuts on my spirit run. I'm a little heavy on the cuts for the spirit run but I run it again to make gin where I cut it again using an air still.

I ran one yesterday actually and got one of my best yields, this one I left to ferment for nearly 2 weeks and I definitely got a larger and cleaner output, normally I only leave it a week. I think I'll ferment for a bit longer going forward.

[howard]

I ran one yesterday actually and got one of my best yields, this one I left to ferment for nearly 2 weeks and I definitely got a larger and cleaner output, normally I only leave it a week. I think I'll ferment for a bit longer going forward.[/quote]

i agree with that, i get about 15% more from a strip by leaving it for longer.
i noticed the increase in product after i got less impatient and better stocked :smile:

[B-Man]

I ended up just running it.
I had a guess at volume... only ended up with about 13L
Rough guess was it ended up about a 9% mash.

I had ran some corn through the still before and the first part of the run smelt like corn.... don't know if its from the still or the wheat has a similar smell.

I have some more corn to run through soon and then a rum aswell but waiting to do that last as I don't feel like cleaning it after running the molasses to do the other stuff

Wow 13L from a 23L mash is huge, I run 30L and my best run on stripping is about 8-10L and 2L Spirit run at around 70% once all is said and done but I don't have a great big still so I'm usually happy with that. I assume 13L is your stripping run? What % do you stop at? I go all the way down to 5% on my stripping run and then take cuts on my spirit run. I'm a little heavy on the cuts for the spirit run but I run it again to make gin where I cut it again using an air still.

I ran one yesterday actually and got one of my best yields, this one I left to ferment for nearly 2 weeks and I definitely got a larger and cleaner output, normally I only leave it a week. I think I'll ferment for a bit longer going forward.

I wish I got 13L from the still.
I only got 13L from the fermentor to run, The rest of the fermentor was full of wheat. I only took 2.5L and probably wont be keeping much still yet to taste :))
I decided to run it really slow and do it as a spirit run. took it down to 16% for the final 600ml. so would have been coming out around 10% or less by the end of it.

[B-Man]

I ran one yesterday actually and got one of my best yields, this one I left to ferment for nearly 2 weeks and I definitely got a larger and cleaner output, normally I only leave it a week. I think I'll ferment for a bit longer going forward.

i agree with that, i get about 15% more from a strip by leaving it for longer.
i noticed the increase in product after i got less impatient and better stocked :smile:[/quote]

what do you think your wash abv is?

[oddian]

I wish I got 13L from the still.
I only got 13L from the fermentor to run, The rest of the fermentor was full of wheat. I only took 2.5L and probably wont be keeping much still yet to taste :))
I decided to run it really slow and do it as a spirit run. took it down to 16% for the final 600ml. so would have been coming out around 10% or less by the end of it.

Oh that makes heaps more sense. I push up to 30L including the oats and after straining I get about 23-25 but the oats are almost toally destroyed by the process and have no hulls or anything like wheat would.

[oddian]

what do you think your wash abv is?

I'll have to remember to test it next time. My last run was 23L but I added in feints from the previous run w hich increases the yeild a little.

I'm guessing from the volume I get from a run that it's about 11% or so? I'll test it next time I run it and report back.