Recirculated water cooling system discussion

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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby GroggyAl » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:44 pm

rumsponge wrote:hi Groggy,
I didnt use the shroudes and cover, yet and looking forward to your measurements. I bought an ozito 550W pump today and hooked it up to the cooler. I cant measure the pressure drop, but the outlet flow was approximately 15L/min so plenty of room for connecting a lot more gear (which will have further impact on flow rate), The pump is rated at >200 L/min (no restrictions to flow) but when I connect a 25m garden hose (12mm) all I have left is approximately 20L/min. I guess the advertised flow rates are just a marketing joke which were obtained under lab conditions.
Anyway, now I just have to wait for my neutralizer to turn up and see how it will work with the cooler. But I am quite optimistic that with gate valves at the PC and RC and several options for hose diameters I will be able to get decent results, flow rate and cooling capacity.
Gives me time to look into more permanent modifications to the cooler and also have to work on my elements and controller.
Cheers, RS

:text-thankyoublue:


RS, I didn't get around to doing the tests today because bloody Mac distracted me and cleaned out my wallet ~x(
I'm getting ready to do a run tonight through the Boka but will get a few numbers from that and I will connect up the new condensers tomorrow to do some flow tests for you.

Regarding your results - the advertised maximum flow rates are only at the discharge of the pump with no fittings connected. I found mine was on the low side as well but surprisingly the head was slightly more than advertised.
Once you connect any fittings to the pump and connect hoses the flow rate will drop dramatically. Your results don't surprise me. It's amazing what a difference a few metres of hose makes. Needle valves are great for control but create a lot of pressure drop. Every little bit of restriction adds up. Size matters :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Consider every part you put in your cooling system and you will be fine.

Cheers
Groggy.
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby GroggyAl » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:57 pm

OK here is the results of the testing with my recirculating water system that consists of a 350w Commercial Electric submersible pump in a 20L tank. I am running it with approx 8-10% bypass loop so I have 9.5bar (95 kPa) head available at the pump discharge. Supply and return hoses are 2x 12mm garden hose each 7.5m long. The cooler is an air cooled radiator (3/8" tube) from an old AC unit.

The first test was doing a neutral run with my 2" Boka. The Boka has a 1/4" tube RC and Liebig product cooler. I run it with one 2400w element. Ambient air temperature at the start of the run was 25*c and 23*c at the end. The pressure recorded downstream of the RC was 9 kPa and the flow rate going back into my tank was less than 3 LPM.

image.jpg



Despite the low flow rates it all seemed to work fine. The cooler consistently held the water at the ambient air temperature. The water temp coming out of the RC was 10 degrees above ambient with valves wide open. I did try running the second element but found the 2" column won't handle it. Liquid started to come out the top and the keg pressure relief valve started to open.
The cooler held the water at ambient temperature so I am confident that it is efficient enough at dissipating the heat of 4800 watts.


I then connected the RC, PC, Liebig parrot cooler, cross exchanger and all inline valves for the new bubbler I am currently building. This time I got a reading of 35 kPa downstream of the valve manifold and a flow rate 10 LPM going back into my tank. The test was carried out with everything laying on the ground. One assembled on the boiler I will need to allow for an extra 1.8 metres of head losses (18 kPa) so the flow rate will be further reduced. I will probably be lucky to get a total of 5 LPM through my system once up and running. Note: due to lack of fittings some pipes are only temporary for connecting it all together.

image.jpg


As a matter of interest I checked the flow coming out of my pump through 15m of 12mm garden hose (no condensers or valves in line). The maximum flow I could get was 24LPM.

A big portion my pressure drop is in the 12mm garden hose and 3/8" tubing of my radiator. Shortening the main supply and return lines or increasing to the 18mm hose and fittings should help a lot.
I'll see how it goes on the sacrificial run before upgrading hose size.

Hope the above is some help to those contemplating a recirculating water cooling system.
Cheers
Grogg Al
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumsponge » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:07 pm

Thanks groggy, quite insightful and good for comparison.
I have to fully digest all that, but just a quick note that 100kPa = 1 bar (instead of your 10kPa ?
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby GroggyAl » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:47 pm

rumsponge wrote:Thanks groggy, quite insightful and good for comparison.
I have to fully digest all that, but just a quick note that 100kPa = 1 bar (instead of your 10kPa ?



Oops, I should have said 9.5 metres head not bar. Groggy must be tired.
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby 1 2many » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:37 pm

Very interested in your results mate and looking forward to your future tests. I like where this thread is going. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby Boardy62 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:13 pm

This seems like a great idea well done :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby frednurk » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:13 pm

Really impressed with how efficient your cooler is. Great work!
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby Meatheadinc » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:14 pm

As the air cons have multiple radiators, back pressure can be reduced by running 2 of them on parallel.
On my system i run a 25mm line from the pump 550w. It is then spit 3 ways at 12mm. 2* RCs (twincolumns generally only one in use )and PC.
My aircon has 4 radiators.
The return is through 2 × 3/8" radiators in parallel then in series with the other 2 in parrellel.
This will allow me around 5 lotres a min flow without bypass.
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumsponge » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:34 pm

Thanks Meathead,
I think our systems are similar. Apparently my still is nearly ready to be send, so will post some measurements when I fire her up in the next weeks.
I plan to have a smallish reservoir (~70L, but can go up to 200L if need be), 550W pump, 18mm hose to the RC and PC, then return to AC via 16mm hose, and 2 AC outlets (2x 12mm garden hose). Am hoping that I will be able to get ~ 5L/min, but have to check if thats enough for the neutralizer running both PC and RC.
Cheers,
RS
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby Meatheadinc » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:18 pm


This will allow me around 5 lotres a min flow without bypass.


Opps that should read 5 litres with intank bypass on full.
Never measured bypass but its much higher than still input line.

I run a neutralizer and flow is more than ample. Even when running twin columns and 2 RCs.
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby Zipeddy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:13 pm

Hey guys. Very insightful thread. Just got our 6kw system at work upgraded and told the ac guys were nice enough to drain the oil and empty the gas for me so keen to have a look at a similar system. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby pecker » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:00 pm

I wasted shit loads of water when I first started this sweet little hobbie.
Then went to 50L tub with lots of ice filled bottles, then saw this setup and got an old AC.
I run a 2" boka with a 2400w element, it has a liebig and cold finger double helix wound coil condenser and use a 2.4kw fujitsu ac and it keeps the water a constant 30C in my 50L water tank, same as it went in.

Awesome idea. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby toyoda » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:37 am

Just a note for anyone going down this path :

I have an A/C licence ( Automotive ) and have done a lot of Gas Recovery. The equipment used to recover gas - A legal requirement - only takes it down to Atmospheric pressure it does not vacuum it down.

This has the effect that a small amount of refrigerant remains in the system and WILL be enough when warmed up after sitting for 1/2 an hour to exert a slight pressure giving the impression that it is still charged.

My advice is that if the guy tells you it has been discharged fully just open up the valve slightly and it should stop within seconds.

Oh and the Oil stinks - might be worth running a solvent through it !

Toyoda
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby Zipeddy » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:05 pm

Good to know.
Thanks Toyoda.
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumsponge » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:59 am

Yeah !!! The Neutralizer has arrived. :music-deathmetal:
This thing, and the FSD service are amazing !!!
Anyway, back on topic. I hooked everything up. Used a ozito 550W submersible pump in a ~60L reservoir and connected it via 18mm heavy duty hose/connectors to PC/RC as detailed in this post:
http://www.aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5400
From the PC/RC outlet another 18mm connector to a 16mm hose that goes into the AC unit, then return to reservoir via 2 x 12mm standard garden hoses (hope the missus wont notice).
No leaks so far and with RC and PC valves fully open, I get about 10.8 L/min :handgestures-thumbupleft:
This is measured with the full setup, so the head (PC/RC outlets) is approximately 1.5m above the reservoir.
Quite happy with that, now off buying some vinegar for the cleaning run.


setup_1.jpg
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumsponge » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:28 pm

Cleaning run went well, got a lot of yellow/green gunk out of the system.
The cooling system was super-efficient. I had no problem knocking down the water/vinegar mixture. ambient temperature 27.5, water bath temp a constant 28.0 with AC fan on high.
Cooling probably too efficient, I had trouble getting any output, almost had to close the valve to the RC to get any.
Now into the scacrificial TPW run, same problem. Getting a very nice toothpick / broken stream at 95% ABV, but the valve has to be nearly closed (not much room for fine adjustments).
anyway, even though its just a sac run, the stuff coming off smells good 8-}
happy days
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby wynnum1 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:38 am

Do you put any additives in the water to stop corrosion of the copper radiator what is the ph of the water .
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumsponge » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:47 am

Good point, havent thought about this. I was under the impression that copper is fairly inert. pH of the reservoir (after three runs) is 7 (tested with pH strips).
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby rumdidlydum » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:36 am

I personally wouldn't bother about putting an inhibitor in.
Water sits around in copper pipes for years with little affect.
Mind you you could put a antifreeze in which will stop any bacteria from growing, the down side is that you need to be sure 100% that you won't have any leaks or accidental spills in the acl side. Have a think about it anyway and do your own risk assessment . :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Recirculated water cooling system discussion

Postby wynnum1 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:08 am

Could put some alcohol in the water only a small amount.
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