Advice Please - Skunked Still

Perforated & bubble cap plated columns

Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby NFI » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:30 am

A week ago I ran a 40 liter batch of TFFV with some feints through my still as usual, I still have issues trying to hold back in full reflux with both elements flat out but I don't think that is where my main problem is.(Note. The TFFV did stall and I tried a few things like agitation first but did end up having to add more yeast to get it going again)
After dripping off the fores (320ml) it started coming through with Heads at around 94%, after a couple of 300ml cuts it started to get what I first thought was a tailsy smell but it was still at 94%.The bottom sight glass was a little fogged but it had been that way all through the slow fores collection. With my still I seem to get a better idea of what is going on by looking at the back of the column (if it all is wet, no droplets its good, starts to dry and puddle as tails come in. But the smell now slowly got worse - a yeasty/vomit smell. I just kept going despite the smell the percentages held similar to normal then dropped of and collected down to 20%. I left it a couple of days in the hope it would improve but it didn't and it tasted as it smells. Even after a week or more the smell reduced but the flavor disgusting.
I drained the still out when it had cooled it had the same vomit smell. Pulled down the column, plates very black, plate seals stained tan colour in parts (especially in the grove for the plate).
So far I have washed out the boiler with dishwasher tablet water, soaked plates in diluted StarSan then rinsed then citric and have also given the column SS a good clean.
1) Any ideas on what would cause this and or how to avoid it?
2) When soaking plates in citric should they end up a nice bright copper colour (like new copper) or salmon pink kind of colour?
3) Could the staining within the grove suggest internal vapour leak?
4) Can I re-run the smelly end result or chuck it and start over?
5) Is there more I can do that would further reduce the last of the smell from the boiler and column?
My gear is a FSD 4 plate bubbler on a 50Litre milk can boiler with two 2400W elements.

Thanks All
NFI
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby Nathan02 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:41 am

Blasting a 4" column with 4800 watts is not a good running practice. You'll find most around here will recommend 2400 watts as a happy run point. Back when I use to run a 4" still I could run 7 plates on 2400 watts and take off at 2.5l p/h so not sure why you need 4800.

Did you check the gravity of the wash before you ran? It's the only true way to know if it's stalled. In my opinion for what its worth I think it's a combination of both as to why you had a shit run. Next wash you put down check the PH is in an optimal spot before pitching yeast.
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby NFI » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:15 am

Nathan02 wrote:Blasting a 4" column with 4800 watts is not a good running practice. You'll find most around here will recommend 2400 watts as a happy run point. Back when I use to run a 4" still I could run 7 plates on 2400 watts and take off at 2.5l p/h so not sure why you need 4800.

Did you check the gravity of the wash before you ran? It's the only true way to know if it's stalled. In my opinion for what its worth I think it's a combination of both as to why you had a shit run. Next wash you put down check the PH is in an optimal spot before pitching yeast.


Thanks Nathan
I am away from home (I am in Vic at present) and do not have my run notes with me but from memory it was 0.99 or 98 on the hydrometer.
I generally only run both elements flat out during heat up, the top element is on a controller and I normally have to turn it almost off to get only a drip or 2 per second for fores. I then slowly wind it up to around 50% to get the stream to run at around 2.5L/Hr but it never really sits steady and I have to slowly increase heat to keep the stream more constant.
The pH was also a contributing factor as you mentioned, it had dropped to around 2.5 (from memory) so had to adjust that up also - but it still did not self start after 12 hrs.
Certainly if I could run the RC slower and get away with only controlling 1 element my life would be easier especially with the hotter weather in QLD.
I am only learning and trying to follow various guides/post on this forum.
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby The Stig » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:37 am

I was going to say the same as Nathan.
Your trying to run way too fast, the Mac4 will happily run on a single 2400w element.
Your cooling water will also play a huge roll in how the rig runs.
Call me when your back home and ready to do a run.
Cheers
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby bluc » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:39 am

I am with nathan. 2 elements to much.
Try this : open needle valve completely. Heat up with both elements till plates are loaded or you get drips(if you cant hold back 4800w) then switch off one element. For neutral you want to stack your column. So for next half hour dont do anything(for brown spirits 10-15min will do). It should hold full reflux no output(a drip or so a second wont stuff it up if your still struggling to hold full reflux.

Then slowly, partially shut off the needle valve (wait 2-3min between adjustments.) Allowing some distillate to pass slowly bleed off heads. Then close needle valve till your running at 2-3l hour.
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby BigRig » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:39 pm

I will add, i shut my 2nd element off once i have heat in the second tee, moving in to the 3rd, its easier to creep up then pull back.
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby NFI » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:01 pm

The Stig wrote:I was going to say the same as Nathan.
Your trying to run way too fast, the Mac4 will happily run on a single 2400w element.
Your cooling water will also play a huge roll in how the rig runs.
Call me when your back home and ready to do a run.
Cheers


Thanks Stig, I have 2 23Lt 2gen CFW which are now over due but still under airlock (they all so stalled and again it did have a pH issue) so I'll check them as for SG when I get home hopefully early next week (I'll see how I go there could be a lot of clean up to by then). OR would there be any point chucking my vomit :puke-huge: smelling TFFV back in for another try? I'll give you a better idea when I get home.


bluc wrote:I am with nathan. 2 elements to much.
Try this : open needle valve completely. Heat up with both elements till plates are loaded or you get drips(if you cant hold back 4800w) then switch off one element. For neutral you want to stack your column. So for next half hour dont do anything(for brown spirits 10-15min will do). It should hold full reflux no output(a drip or so a second wont stuff it up if your still struggling to hold full reflux.

Then slowly, partially shut off the needle valve (wait 2-3min between adjustments.) Allowing some distillate to pass slowly bleed off heads. Then close needle valve till your running at 2-3l hour.


Thanks Bluc.
Yeah, I have been trying to do something similar but adjusting the element up rather than RC down but have only been keeping it in full reflux on one element for 15mins, so will increase that time on the neutrals. My rig has only got gate valves on the RC & PC so I never really feel like I have any precise control and hence using the element control method. I might need to look at a needle on the RC at some stage.
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby NFI » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:58 pm

BigRig wrote:I will add, i shut my 2nd element off once i have heat in the second tee, moving in to the 3rd, its easier to creep up then pull back.


I do tend to take note of the progression/timing of heat up the column so it is a good tip for me. cheers
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby bluc » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:38 pm

You shouldnt need a valve on pc unless eliminating huffing..
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby The Stig » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:49 pm

Our cooling kit includes a valve for the PC just to satisfy my OCD in keeping the symmetrical equality :-B
It’s also a good thing if trying to hold full reflux is hard you can shut off the PC and push more water to the RC
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Re: Advice Please - Skunked Still

Postby NFI » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:12 am

The Stig wrote:Our cooling kit includes a valve for the PC just to satisfy my OCD in keeping the symmetrical equality :-B
It’s also a good thing if trying to hold full reflux is hard you can shut off the PC and push more water to the RC


I did partially use that technique on the last run, reducing PC flow to help increase RC cooling with some success. In most of the guides/post that I have read they all say to open the PC full on (if I remember right) before even turning on the elements (I assume only on a recycling system) and so I have been cautious with that. I guess if vapour was getting passed the RC and there was no PC flow I would end up with a vapour leak causing a possible safety issue.
As far as needle valves I was only thinking of putting one on the RC, the PC seems much less of an issue as far as needing precise control
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