Plate Variables

[emptyglass]

Don't think you have to go that far. The answers are here.
Jim's just trying to build a still, not make a rocket. Well he could be making one for all I know, but he hasn't told us yet.

[googe]

True empty, if he is, we have that covered too :teasing-neener: :laughing-rolling:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1702

[MacStill]

I'm gunna say that if anyone wants to build one of these rigs a certain amount of research is required, and that research is not getting spoon fed by asking questions that have been answered repeatedly previously.

If you dont understand that you cant determine ABV or output speed in a pot still by adjusting the condenser you're not ready to to build a bubbler ;-)

[MR-E]

+1, a lot of newbs diving in without knowing the basics.

[Urrazeb]

Ask dr Karl

[jim]

There certainly is a wealth of knowledge spread all over the internet. There is even a lot of knowledge in the forum library. The problem is the diffuse nature of it all. Even the library is a bit overwhelming with the vast number of titles in it, and the book titles aren't all that helpful. I'm pretty sure that one of the main rules of this site was that we weren't going to automatically tell people to find our own own answers in the back catalog, rather we were about helping each other out as much as possible.

The point of this thread is to try and consolidate some of the key aspects of plated columns to help guide our builds, and our understanding of how a small plated column works. Looking in the textbooks, they all say that a plated column under 18" is not worth the effort, for these they recommend a packed column. We know otherwise, for what we want, a 4" to 8" column works great. You cant just read the textbooks and swallow what they say without applying some experience to it. Some of us don't have that experience and yours is very helpful.

Everyone was a newb once. Many of us still are, but are trying hard to overcome this.

[MacStill]

Did you not read my last response? perhaps you should :angry-banghead:

[jim]

I'm gunna say that if anyone wants to build one of these rigs a certain amount of research is required, and that research is not getting spoon fed by asking questions that have been answered repeatedly previously.

If you dont understand that you cant determine ABV or output speed in a pot still by adjusting the condenser you're not ready to to build a bubbler ;-)

I've read detailed articles and chapters on chemical engineering describing tray design. It is dense, hard to understand, and much of it changes when dealing with the extremely small columns we use.

I have read every bubbler thread I could find on four different forums. There are a lot of detailed bubbler builds discussed, and several proven designs. But not many threads discussing which variables are the ones that make those proven designs successful. Posting the question here resulted in a few thoughtful answers, and a few statements I interpreted as "we already have proven designs, why are you trying to optimise?" and "if you dont already know this stuff then we wont tell you".

I don't feel like I am asking for information that has been already answered repeatedly, and I do see value in determining the key variables in a successful design.

[MacStill]

a few statements I interpreted as "we already have proven designs, why are you trying to optimise?" and "if you dont already know this stuff then we wont tell you".

You interpreted my comment wrong

If you dont understand that you cant determine ABV or output speed in a pot still by adjusting the condenser you're not ready to to build a bubbler

Now it seems you're demanding answers.

[googe]

I hear ya Jim, by the time I finish reading a book or article 1000 pages long I tend to get a sore brain and nothing goes in. I understand people need to do research and learn for them selves, but at what point does one know when there ready because plated columns are very in depth and the leaning is never ending. I also undertamd that some people get sick of answering the same questions, and again its like reading a 10000 page book but its broken down into 100000 posts. The thing I don't understand is, if you try your hardest reading and being a decent person, you still wont get the answer your after, in talking simple questions. I will try as hard as I can with my build and if I get stuck I ll read more, if that doesn't help, ill just stop building it till I get a better understanding. But I wont beask questions anymore. It really pisses me off that its such a secretive subject, I for one will be helping whoever I can when I get to learn more. Btw, I love bubblers

[Sam.]

If you can't build a bubbler that performs well from the vast amount of info provided by the guys on this site then you really have not read all the threads.

No one is being secretive about anything. If you haven't noticed Mac post pics of a lot of builds and there internals.

I know a lot of the info is hidden in different threads but no one here has the time to consolidate it all

[bt1]

nfi where this got lost...

I'm hearing you too Jim...we're here to learn and work on a few ideas..

I simply wanted an answer to this question

I also had toyed with the idea of having post the reflux condenser larger tubing diameters to induce a lower pressure effect in effect 'dragging" the vapour through...I'm a little short on the physics of it currently and still looking in to this as a design idea....say 6" on top of 4' col. Most current designs reduce or halve post reflux but it seems to be more about costs and availability to me

.

Simply really I've done the readin and done the building but I can't find a straight answer to this change to my new design...

bt1

[jim]

I simply wanted an answer to this question

I also had toyed with the idea of having post the reflux condenser larger tubing diameters to induce a lower pressure effect in effect 'dragging" the vapour through...I'm a little short on the physics of it currently and still looking in to this as a design idea....say 6" on top of 4' col. Most current designs reduce or halve post reflux but it seems to be more about costs and availability to me

.

Simply really I've done the readin and done the building but I can't find a straight answer to this change to my new design...

bt1

I did a bit of thinking about that when you wrote it, and don't have any definite answers. The purpose of your modification is to get more vapor out of the column for a given amount of heat using something like a venturi force, like those big mufflers on certain cars.

I don't think you will gain much efficiency this way. If you think of the still as a system, the section with the most restriction to the vapor will be the limiting section. The best way to improve throughput is to work on the most restrictive parts.
The point of highest restriction is at the plate. You will get much much higher restriction pushing the vapor through pinholes on the plate and 3/4" of liquid than you would through a 2" open pipe.

Secondly I don't think that venturi forces work that way.
I have seen industrial strength vacuum cleaners that worked on the venturi principle, powered by compressed air. They blasted the air through a pipe with a Tee on it, and fed the lower leg of the tee into a 55 gallon drum. The inlet to the tee was narrower than the outlet. They hooked a hose into a second opening in the drum. The vacuum cleaner worked great. One of those drums was old and rusty. Something got stuck over the hose intake, and the whole 55 gallon drum crushed like a beer can from the buildup of vacuum inside. Venturi forces are powerful.

But they don't create free energy. The sucking force of that vacuum came at the cost of airspeed from the compressor. If the tee would have been a pipe with no vacuum input, but still with a flared end, the system would have lost a bit of restriction due to the overall reduction in drag, but it wouldn't suck more air out than what can be attributed to the reduction in drag.

Also the venturi force acts in proportion to the speed of the fluid or gas moving through the pipe. The speeds of vapor coming out a 2" pipe would not generate much force.

[emptyglass]

How do I say this nice...,
If you want to make a bubbler that is basicly a copy of another, you don't need to know all the possible in's and out's. Just copy it and make sure the design you are copying is good.
If you come up with an original idea that no one has ever thought of before, then you just need to give it a go, and find out if it works or not. Some of us that have been playing with these things for a while have done exatly that, thats why we are where we now with bubbler design.

Its one thing to have a rush of blood to the head, but it takes time and money to try an idea. If you ask "what do you think about this?", no one is wrong when they answer, as you asked for their thoughts. Asking a specific question is the best way to get a specific answer.
And sometimes answers don't come because no one knows yet. In some cases you need to blaze the trail.

The known arragements for plates are pretty well proven to give results that are quite pleasing. If you want to get into the phisics, thats cool, but you are wasting good building time, if you get what I mean

[googe]

Wouldn't you have to work out if your energy sorce could make it work first?, if your going to add something to pull more energy out of soothing wouldn't you need a energy sorce that could handle it?. A 3 burner for example will only have so much energy it can put out, anything above that will be like sucking shit through a straw.

[bt1]

kk,

hear what's being said so far

I simply don't have the trail blazing capacity to build.. neither resources or time. That btw doesn't make the discussion process less viable it just means I have a longer lead time to test.

This is one of 8 ideas I have on the plate...pun intended...for plate design

I'm happy to share the ideas with those that have the machining/skills/time to develop...I've no hang up on the ownership story...really I don't give a fuck...

Let's just get some real discussion on the ideas and leave it to those who can....to do it.

At some stage my new 8" build might hopefully, have a few of these design ideas included. Simple. Happy. The End.

bt1

[MacStill]

If you can't build a bubbler that performs well from the vast amount of info provided by the guys on this site then you really have not read all the threads.

No one is being secretive about anything. If you haven't noticed Mac post pics of a lot of builds and there internals.

I know a lot of the info is hidden in different threads but no one here has the time to consolidate it all

Let alone the dynamics, physics & venturi effects of it all... FMD!!

[jim]

First I want to thank Mac and all the other mods that help us. This has been by far the friendliest and most helpful forum I've ever seen. The people here have pointed out the cheapest places to buy parts, sold me fermenters and kegs, and sold me parts for excellent prices. I have also been given excellent advice on how to build the best possible still for the money, then what recipes would work, and how to run the still in the most effective way. I have recieved personal help with a tricky bit of soldering, and I appreciate every bit of it. ^:)^

The last thing I want to do is alienate anyone by sounding as if I am entitled to their help and that I should be spoonfed answers that take rediculous amounts of time to compile. This sort of attitude would irritate me if it were applied to me, and is not what is intended with this thread. I have read Crow's recent post and I agree 100%.

I am an engineer, and this is the way I have been trained to break down and analyse problems. :-B I enjoy the process of solving them. I posted this not because I expected anyone to have to do lots of research to answer my questions, but so that anyone who enjoys working out the nerdy physics can join in too. So please dont take it that way. If the exact details of the physics around parts of the bubbler bores you, please just ignore this thread.

What frustrates me is having people tell me not to bother with it, that I'm wasting my time and theirs, or otherwise try to derail my thread.

Once again, I am very greatful for the help you have all provided, I can see you guys put a lot of sweat into this forum creating a ton of good will out of a lot of hard work and experimentation. Ive seen and experienced your help firsthand and have nothing but respect for you.

[bt1]

howdy,

Jim makes a few good pts and the comments about pissing ppl apply to myself also. I'm very grateful for advice and assistance and mtls. I also try to assist others based on what I know on a regular basis.

I'm not demanding anything and perhaps in retrospect could have framed my question better, along the lines of do we have physics guru who has 5 mins spare. I also read Crow's post. logical.

I'm cursed with some of the same traits Jim mentioned. If I don't understand the principles behind something its like i'm flying blind and a great personal source of frustration.
In a group of this size it's likely to have a ex Physics guru who could in a matter of minutes answer the question raised. if not no biggy I'll go find one who can. Simple.

My new bubbler is belting out the gear at a rate and abv I am most happy with...but that doesn't stop me asking well what if? In fact the conceptual what if's are to me the
best part of this game.
I'd like to be able to discuss remaining ideas as mentioned just to get an opinion. Nothing more is asked or expected.

bt1

[MR-E]

Why complicate things, there is lots of info on how to to build a bubbler & how to run it.
Those that have run perf plates & bubble cap plates have reported there findings, no noticeable difference
in the end product.
I built mine following the advice given & learnt the hard way to follow the advice on how to run it.
I don't have a degree in physics, but I make some good hooch.
I'm just your average Joe trying to have a go.

Cheers :handgestures-thumbupleft: