Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

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Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby emptyglass » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:46 am

Ok, so I decided to open the box. Just keep it civil. This post is a somewhat simplifed version, lets expand and discuss as we go.

1) What is hard solder?
2) Is it better than soft solder? Is it worse?
3) Costs?
4) Benifits?

1) Hard soldering is a process that has a heat range from 300degrees C to about the 600 or 700 degreeC mark. This includes brazing and silver soldering, typicaly. Brazing- this is a process that uses bronze, brass and tin alloys. Silver soldering is a process that introduces silver, in varing proportions. 2.5% silver is called "plumbers solder" or "silver solder". It what a plumber should use on potable water supplies, ie, your kitchen tap. Then you can get 15% and 45%silver content over the counter. Where soft solder get its own bedroom, by definition of the thermal melting point, silver solder and brazing are forced to share a bunk bed in the same room, even though they have their own unique properties. Silver solder usually gets the top bunk.

2) this is somewhat subjective. It all depends on the task at hand. If your building a still from copper, then you probably won't need the extra strength that hard solder can provide. If your brazing car ramps, thats different. Hard solder has a distinctive strength advantage. If you are attatching BSP style fittings directly to copper, hard solder is better, purley from a strength and integrity point of veiw.

3) The rub- Cost. For someone that has to buy all the gear to get up and happening to make a still, then soft solder wins hands down. All you need is a roll of good soft solder, some bakers soldering fluid, and a small LP gas torch. Most guys usually have a BBQ bottle of gas kicking around, Hard solder requires higher temps. It can be done with a lp gas torch, but can need the help of an extra burner to get to the required heat. Oxy-Acetaline is accesable to everyone here, but it costs a lot. 45% silver solder costs $mega. 15% silver costs $much. 2.5% is comparable to any silver bearing soft solder. Fluxes are on par with each other. On a clean copper to copper joint, flux is not required with silver solder.

4)Brazing is not desirable in still construction, due to its content of brass and other alloys. Silver solder, on the other hand, is a more noble method of making copper joints. Silver has better "wetability" and will flow into a joint with less encouragment than other fillers (this also holds true for soft solder with siver bearing content). A silver soldered joint needs less overlap than a soft soldered joint.

This is only the start, there is much more to be said. Throw your 2 bob in.
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby MacStill » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:33 pm

Nice post EG, great to see unbiased comparisons by those in the know :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby emptyglass » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:38 pm

I'll admit Mac, I'm biased.
I do prefer silver solder over brazing and soft soldering.
Brazing is on the hotter end of the scale, and the fluxes used are a nasty bunch of critters. Clean up's a bitch. Soft solder can sometimes be hard to get flowing and once it does, its easy to make it run all over the place. Takes some practice to get good looking joints "off the flame".

15% silver solder is like baby bears porridge. It dosnt get too hot, or too cold, it flows well and sticks. Because the heat required is a bit higher than soft solder, you get good control of where you want it to flow, and removing the torch allows it to cool quicker and stop running away from the joint. Even though its the same theory with soft solder, the temp differences (ambient air, melt point, flow point, blah blah) make this a bit touch and go. The window is narrower.

But, for a fella or gal that wants to just make a still, and may never solder anything (other than their "next" still), with all the set up costs, soft solder is the go. The torch can be bought cheap and it can be run cheap. The soft stuff is easy to clean off if it gets messy (so no one but you has to know what it once looked like!), and its more than up to the job.

On the other hand, if you muck around with metal or cars a bit, you'll already know what you can do with an oxy/acet or oxy/LPG set up. Maybe with some still making projects, it might be the swinging factor that makes you get one. Those that can use or borrow their bosses oxy might want to look at silver solder as an option. In fact, your boss might even be able to supply the silver solder for you....
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby Modernity » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:56 pm

+1 :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby MacStill » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:21 am

I have MIG, TIG, ARC, OXY, MAPP, LPG & a plasma :geek:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby caveman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:34 am

McStill wrote:I have MIG, TIG, ARC, OXY, MAPP, LPG & a plasma :geek:

And don't forget the big bag of peanuts and monkey too :teasing-tease:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby stilly_bugger » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:36 am

I have duct tape and a hammer.

The epitome of lucidity, WineGlass.
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby MacStill » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:12 am

caveman wrote:
McStill wrote:I have MIG, TIG, ARC, OXY, MAPP, LPG & a plasma :geek:

And don't forget the big bag of peanuts and monkey too :teasing-tease:


Ahhh shaddap wabbit :laughing-rolling:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby JayD » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 am

I have ingenuity...all the above processes come into their own for different applications, just choose the right process the jobs intended service.
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby stretch69 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:21 pm

Hi
I'm a bit confused with all this,
I'm wanting to hard solder some ferrules on to a keg.
Does 'hard solder' 2% 5% 15% only come in sticks and not rolls like soft solder? I thought these sticks were for brazing? , :angry-banghead:
Sorry if it's a stupid question but I've only done a little soft soldering before.

Btw I have a propane torch and also mapp gas
Thanks
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby Sam. » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:14 pm

Hard soldering is brazing and uses the sticks.

Soft soldering is the rolls I soft gear.

You would probably need oxy to hard solder on a keg. I would look at getting it welded instead :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby wedwards » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:02 pm

stretch69 wrote:Hi
I'm a bit confused with all this,
I'm wanting to hard solder some ferrules on to a keg.


My question about this is why would you need hard solder and not use something like aquasafe from bunnings - assuming my understanding of hard solder (sticks), and soft solder (rolls) is correct. I have this stuff as it was mentioned in another thread I believe;

http://www.bunnings.com.au/consolidated ... -_p5060362

Im thinking that would be all you would need to solder ferrules etc into kegs. Anyone care to steer me in another direction about this, or fill me in on the downsides of using this?
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby wedwards » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:13 pm

While we are on the topic of soldering, I was told by Bunnings yesterday that the Bernzomatic TS8000 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/bernzomatic- ... t_p5910208) which it seems a fair few people here use and recommend, is no longer going to be a stock item and will be special order only. In my experience, that means that you wont be able to get them anymore through Bunnings.

Would this from supercheap be an equivalent replacement or has anyone used these? http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... 0614#Cross

Theres not a lot of info on output on the manufacturers website, however they seem australian made or at least imported by someone here. Given they come with 2 map cans im thinking its cheaper that the bunnings torch anyway, and hopefully will be readily available to others looking for something similar.

Any comments or experiences with the hot devil torch would be appreciated.
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Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby P3T3rPan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:04 pm

I am 100% with WineGlass. Having done literally miles and miles of soldering (lead tin) as a plumber and zillions of silver joins I would say that if you have access to oxy /fuel gas you can learn to silver braze copper very quickly.
Mmmm baby bears porridge.
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby unsub » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:23 pm

Hi Wedwards,

That torch should be fine but if you only need to do a few bits and pieces you can borrow my bernzo mapp torch if you want.
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby wedwards » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:41 pm

Thanks unsub, I got 4 x 50L kegs to convert to conical fermenters, and am hoping at the end of it I will then try my hand at building a bubbler in my "spare" time, so will just go with the supercheap option and worst case if its crap will just return it....after the map bottles run out of course :)
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby stretch69 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:39 pm

wedwards wrote:
stretch69 wrote:Hi
I'm a bit confused with all this,
I'm wanting to hard solder some ferrules on to a keg.


My question about this is why would you need hard solder and not use something like aquasafe from bunnings - assuming my understanding of hard solder (sticks), and soft solder (rolls) is correct. I have this stuff as it was mentioned in another thread I believe;

http://www.bunnings.com.au/consolidated ... -_p5060362

Im thinking that would be all you would need to solder ferrules etc into kegs. Anyone care to steer me in another direction about this, or fill me in on the downsides of using this?


i didn't think about that, i have some of the aqua safe already. the ferrules are for the elements and 4" sight glass.
My mate is happy to tig them up so i might just let him do it :happy-partydance:
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby Hotanddry » Thu May 29, 2014 8:45 am

Hey guys i have access to Boc pro 2, pro silver 15 and pro silver 45. I was planning on using the 15 as it flows really well but is not as soft as the 45. As far as I can tell they are all lead free is there any thing else I need to check before choosing which solder? But the 15 and 45 are more used in refrigeration work will this matter?
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby hillzabilly » Thu May 29, 2014 11:04 am

Hotanddry wrote:Hey guys i have access to Boc pro 2, pro silver 15 and pro silver 45. I was planning on using the 15 as it flows really well but is not as soft as the 45. As far as I can tell they are all lead free is there any thing else I need to check before choosing which solder? But the 15 and 45 are more used in refrigeration work will this matter?

I use their SILVERCOAT 45T it is coated with its own flux and works well for me.hillzabilly
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Re: Hard soldering. Brazing. Silver.

Postby sp0rk » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:31 pm

Question for anyone who may know
I'm thinking about using some welding spuds or stainless couplings to use as my element port and drain port on my keg boiler (and possibly even the same scenario for my fill port/sightglass)
I don't really have access to a TIG welder that can purge (despite being an ex welder myself), and I can't really find anyone who'll do purged welding at a sane price
But I have a plumber mate who can hard solder them in for me, in return for a few bottles of my finest homebrew :D
Has anyone tried this with success? I'm just a little worried that the solder might not be durable enough
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