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AD searchI use hard siver solder a lot. I'm used to it, and I have a bit of it in stock. But horses for courses.
Maybe worth investigating how soft solder might be the way to go for this application. Thin stuff is where it's qualitys shine. The low heat requirement is on your side...
You can obviously get things hot enough to braze, you'll sh-t it in.
If you can keep it flat while welding, you eliminate a lot of issues later. You know this.
To try and tig this, you will need some fancy gear/fancy skills. One can make up for the lack of the other.
A flip top lid (nod your head) welding mask will handicap you. Dosn't mean it cant be done, but you will want to re-practice what you know. If you mig lid has a sensitivity control, you should be ok. Set it a bit higher for tig (jeez, I hope thats the right way, racking my memory now)
Pluse and slope control make up a bit for the shaky hand we ge as we get on. If you get a few D-T's with a plain scratch start tig, you're sure to make a mess. You could use the tig to tack it in place, then soft solder it to seal...assuming the 500 amp monster can get down to 20 - 30 amps.
All could be fixed with soft solder, I take Mac's side here.
We all know hard solder is stronger, but there is a limit to the requirement for "strength" in home still land. Its also more expensive. All good if you need the strength, but we don't always need it. And its hotter, you don't want heat here.
Like my dad said, do you want the drilling machine, or just the hole....do you want a bubble ball, or the very best solder holding togther something that might not work?
Back to the mesh, any furthur news?
Building a bubble ball
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Re: Building a bubble ball
by MacStill » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:14 pm
Just to clarify my standing here, I hate brazing and the argument about it's stronger.... we not building car ramps :))
I can swing a keg around on a soft soldered easy flange, cant for any reason think why it needs to be stronger than that ;-)
Soft solder is awesome stuff
I can swing a keg around on a soft soldered easy flange, cant for any reason think why it needs to be stronger than that ;-)
Soft solder is awesome stuff
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- MacStill
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Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:45 am
Ahh I see. We agree it is stronger just that the strength is not really needed. Yes I agree the strength is not always needed I was only making the point I could have cut the tabs down even further and still had a strong joint using silver.
EG is divining well and part of the plan for the upcomers is to make do with lead free soft solder to avoid warping it further. Also when fixing the tray in the bowl. My hearth uses forced air and propane as a cheap way to get the heat for brazing. For soft solder I would move down to a simple small propane torch.I had considered tacking them with the tig first to make sure they stay in place but EG is making me rethink that as it seems to be not needed and more trouble than it's worth at this stage. I'm not trying to use things just for the sake of it. I have silver in stock from a bulk ebay buy years ago. So I used that. In fact if I was paying per stick the cost would have been upsetting but the cost of this supply is long forgotten. I still have plenty left and am happy to have depleted my supply in a good cause. I do think for the simple butt joint on the top rjt fitting I would choose silver over soft because that really could be a weak joint with only the thickness of the metal to bond together with zero overlap. Silver is strong even here. Likewise with simple sheet stainless flanges butted up and brazed to the outside of the ball; no overlap but the thickness, or thinness, of the sheet I cut the flanges from. Don't even know for sure if this will work but the only low cost solution I have thought of so far. Any suggestions that don't involve spending a small fortune welcome.
If on pressure testing for leaks with water and steam any show up it should be easy to touch up with soft solder without disturbing the silver. I say pressure but of course I won't be building a steam bomb and it will be well vented to atmosphere with no packing and a clear 2" or better path all the way. If I wanted to actually pressure test I would fill with water all the way up and use a compressor to add pressure to do a hydraulic test which won't explode even if something fails.
The sensitivity would have to be at it's lowest to have a chance on the shield. Tig gives off more uv than any other welding method. While it will be nice to be able to use it again the thin stainless plate is probably not the best thing to practice on. Especially not until after my mate has built the external pulse control. I won't want to wait that long.
The mesh has nothing to report at the moment. Until I sort the 7" flange out there is no moving forward on the tray because I want to be sure I have a ball I can open up again before trying an experimental bubble cap design. The pressure switch is still with my mate and he is currently working on positional control of the linear actuator for moving the cooling coil with. So will wait for that before getting everything at once. Good job we have known each other since we were both young or it would be a lot to ask of a friend, the amount of design and construction he does for me. A really clever chap who is very kind to an old friend.
So unless anyone has any 7" ideas (not that type of 7" :naughty: ) the flange is my next job.
EG is divining well and part of the plan for the upcomers is to make do with lead free soft solder to avoid warping it further. Also when fixing the tray in the bowl. My hearth uses forced air and propane as a cheap way to get the heat for brazing. For soft solder I would move down to a simple small propane torch.I had considered tacking them with the tig first to make sure they stay in place but EG is making me rethink that as it seems to be not needed and more trouble than it's worth at this stage. I'm not trying to use things just for the sake of it. I have silver in stock from a bulk ebay buy years ago. So I used that. In fact if I was paying per stick the cost would have been upsetting but the cost of this supply is long forgotten. I still have plenty left and am happy to have depleted my supply in a good cause. I do think for the simple butt joint on the top rjt fitting I would choose silver over soft because that really could be a weak joint with only the thickness of the metal to bond together with zero overlap. Silver is strong even here. Likewise with simple sheet stainless flanges butted up and brazed to the outside of the ball; no overlap but the thickness, or thinness, of the sheet I cut the flanges from. Don't even know for sure if this will work but the only low cost solution I have thought of so far. Any suggestions that don't involve spending a small fortune welcome.
If on pressure testing for leaks with water and steam any show up it should be easy to touch up with soft solder without disturbing the silver. I say pressure but of course I won't be building a steam bomb and it will be well vented to atmosphere with no packing and a clear 2" or better path all the way. If I wanted to actually pressure test I would fill with water all the way up and use a compressor to add pressure to do a hydraulic test which won't explode even if something fails.
The sensitivity would have to be at it's lowest to have a chance on the shield. Tig gives off more uv than any other welding method. While it will be nice to be able to use it again the thin stainless plate is probably not the best thing to practice on. Especially not until after my mate has built the external pulse control. I won't want to wait that long.
The mesh has nothing to report at the moment. Until I sort the 7" flange out there is no moving forward on the tray because I want to be sure I have a ball I can open up again before trying an experimental bubble cap design. The pressure switch is still with my mate and he is currently working on positional control of the linear actuator for moving the cooling coil with. So will wait for that before getting everything at once. Good job we have known each other since we were both young or it would be a lot to ask of a friend, the amount of design and construction he does for me. A really clever chap who is very kind to an old friend.
So unless anyone has any 7" ideas (not that type of 7" :naughty: ) the flange is my next job.
- Anthoney
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm
- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:01 pm
You win :clap: :dance: That's the plan :handgestures-thumbupleft: Add the caps first though to make sure. Get the caps all sat upside down on a steel surface then solder the risers to the bottom of the tray and then whatever angle the tray goes into the ball don't matter so long as the all even together caps are level as determined by by two little levels at 90deg to each other. Tray may look wonky but the liquid and the caps will both line up level with each other and the caps should bubble evenly if I can actually do it right. Have the ball fitted to the keg, ideally sat where you intend to still, when soldering the tray in position. You can even paint a circle on the floor around the keg so you know where the sweet spot is later. Overkill possibly but I enjoy thinking things through. I'm sure someone somewhere on some forum will one day be saying they did this when they were five but don't bother now because they are so experienced fluid surfaces align where they will them to...or they're in trouble.
- Anthoney
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm
- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:06 am
Been slow progress and not much to report even now. Reason being I have decided I want the ball to open up easily and can't afford a 7" tri clamp with two 7" ferrules. Or even just the clamp. Only cheap solution I can think of is to cut flanges out of sheet, braze them on the halves and clamp them together with cleco clamps. The side pinch clamps like bulldog clips on steroids. 70lb or 31.75kg of clamping force per clamp.
Started one flange but having tried the feel of it after cutting it and putting the since acquired micrometer on it, I think it should be a dummy run as it seems too thin (.7mm) to me. Perhaps I could reinforce it but I would rather get something thicker, if I can, and start again.
The methodology seems to have been good though so I will share what I have done and perhaps someone will have some feedback to inform my next move.
First I drew some circles in thick blue marker for the inner and outer dia. Then, using a shallow punched centre I used my gasket cutter to scribe an exact circle, for each marking, in the blue marker and the steel below.
Then I cut out the centre with a small angle grinder. Then freed the flange from the sheet (old butchers tray) also with the angle grinder.
I left plenty of margin inside and outside the scribed lines. The angle grinder is not a precise tool.
Then I used the bench grinder to grind the outside of the flange down to the scribed line. I was not too worried about ultra precision as this is not a critical cut.
Then I put the flange in the vice and used the dremel with a cylindrical grindstone to grind to the inner scribed line. This is a fairly critical cut as it has to slide snugly over the ball half and braze solidly on.
Well that's all until I can find better stock to work with. 1mm or better seems like it might be enough. I could double this stuff up but too much of a fudge I think. Time to hit the charity shops for a couple of 8" or bigger stainless pans perhaps. Use the thick bases. Harder work than what has turned out to be a practice run but should be doable.
Started one flange but having tried the feel of it after cutting it and putting the since acquired micrometer on it, I think it should be a dummy run as it seems too thin (.7mm) to me. Perhaps I could reinforce it but I would rather get something thicker, if I can, and start again.
The methodology seems to have been good though so I will share what I have done and perhaps someone will have some feedback to inform my next move.
First I drew some circles in thick blue marker for the inner and outer dia. Then, using a shallow punched centre I used my gasket cutter to scribe an exact circle, for each marking, in the blue marker and the steel below.
Then I cut out the centre with a small angle grinder. Then freed the flange from the sheet (old butchers tray) also with the angle grinder.
I left plenty of margin inside and outside the scribed lines. The angle grinder is not a precise tool.
Then I used the bench grinder to grind the outside of the flange down to the scribed line. I was not too worried about ultra precision as this is not a critical cut.
Then I put the flange in the vice and used the dremel with a cylindrical grindstone to grind to the inner scribed line. This is a fairly critical cut as it has to slide snugly over the ball half and braze solidly on.
Well that's all until I can find better stock to work with. 1mm or better seems like it might be enough. I could double this stuff up but too much of a fudge I think. Time to hit the charity shops for a couple of 8" or bigger stainless pans perhaps. Use the thick bases. Harder work than what has turned out to be a practice run but should be doable.
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:07 am
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:54 am
After stalling on the flange for some time I have now made some progress. I gave up waiting for some thicker stainless to turn up and made flanges from 10mm copper pipe. Then I went on to make a triclamp from plywood with a nice thick oak face. Offcuts from some uber expensive laminate flooring. Not finished yet but enough progress to be worth reporting.
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:58 am
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:02 am
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:06 am
In reality it took several passes with each of these tools in various turns to get a good fit on both flanges. I'm sure there is a tool out there that would just do it great in one pass but with what I have I just carved it to fit with successive alterations.
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- Anthoney
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm
- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:10 am
May need to adjust the groove some more when the silicone gasket (from cookie sheet) is in place but feel like it is working so far.
Thanks to YHB for pointing me to the easy easy flange :teasing-neener: to anyone who knew about it and watched me struggle on for weeks without suggesting it. I know I mentioned the joy of discovery but really, I also asked for ideas.
Thanks also to YHB for the inspiration to consider wood in the build. His wood clad boiler with wooden clamps for the lid of a water urn is a work of art.
Thanks to YHB for pointing me to the easy easy flange :teasing-neener: to anyone who knew about it and watched me struggle on for weeks without suggesting it. I know I mentioned the joy of discovery but really, I also asked for ideas.
Thanks also to YHB for the inspiration to consider wood in the build. His wood clad boiler with wooden clamps for the lid of a water urn is a work of art.
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- Anthoney
- Posts: 48
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by crow » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:09 am
sooo what happened with this did it work as expected
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Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:07 am
Just logged on for the first time in a long time. Day work and paying the bills took over my life not long after my last post. All I did since that was make some zinc chloride flux from battery case zinc and some conc HCl; for low temp soldering of stainless. Looking to start up again sometime this year when the weather finally warms up again. Snow in spring is just ridiculous. Bought a soldering gun today by coincidence. To use with the zinc based flux. Only 100w so time will tell if it works. According the the beer brewing forum, where they solder stainless quite a lot, it should. I feel uncertain about it but it was only £6 so it will come in handy for something sometime if not.
- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:43 am
Finally got around to finishing the ball, more or less.
The stainless plate was just too much trouble even with the totally awesome zinc chloride flux. Solder gun was naff so I switched to a copper plate and my smallest propane torch, a Rothenberger for those that care.
As usual I'll let the pictures do the talking. Questions or comments welcome.
The stainless plate was just too much trouble even with the totally awesome zinc chloride flux. Solder gun was naff so I switched to a copper plate and my smallest propane torch, a Rothenberger for those that care.
As usual I'll let the pictures do the talking. Questions or comments welcome.
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- Anthoney
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm
- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
Re: Building a bubble ball
by Anthoney » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:00 am
Still need to seal in a sight glass and put a silicone seal between the ball halves but both are trivial tasks.
I believe the mesh skirts may be prone to fouling. Only suitable for well cleared sugar washes most likely. Easy to open up for cleaning though. If they don't work or are too much of a PITA then easy enough to change as well.
Working on an SPP machine at the moment. Will start a new post when I have more progress to demonstrate.
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- Anthoney
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- equipment: Building a keg boiler with 7inch bubble ball under a 2" packed column with a 4" head. Just got started so not used it yet as not finished building it.
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