Compare 3" VM / LM still take off rates.

[jl88]

Hey guys. I went ahead and ended up with My 3" stainless still. The reflux column is 1.5m high of stainless scrubbers, a copper catalyst mesh and insulated. It sits on an insulated 50lt keg with 2 x 2400w internal stainless elements. I orginally ran it as VM only. In the search for better heads compression I adopted a lm / boka style head. Although in my opinion, Running the vapour management at low power and nearly fully closed was as good. Maybe a little slower.

I couldn't fit it in the garage so modified it to utilise a " Thor's hammer condenser " to save height and minimise over cooling the condensate. I was originally worried about smearing as their is no angle but haven't noticed any detriment. In the picture I show a stainless steel 2" shotgun condenser with an adapter to a 1/2" copper pipe. This was the first time I used this set up. It pulled 5lt of 92% in about 35 minutes. Great rate but not aezeo. Normally I run it with a 1" stainless gate valve to a 800mm 1/2" over 3/4" copper liebig with turbulator in jacket. This knocks down everything even in pot still mode at 4800w with no huffing etc and minimal mains water flow. With the liebig however I can not go over a 1:1 reflux ratio so am limited to about 4lt 93% per hour at 4800w or 1.8lt per hour at 95-96%. This is on a spirit run at about 30-40% in the boiler. A wash run at 10% yields about 1-2% less.

Anyway enough of the updates and on to the questions. I was wondering if these figures are about right. I was actually hoping from more from this still. I have tried very tight packing, tight packing and looser packing. More loose seems better at higher power and vice versa. I thought I would easily be able to run the full 4800w for aezeo. Evidently not... I have two 3500w elements on their way that I don't think I will even be able to use!


So I would love to see a comparison of what people are using and achieving please.

IE column style: bubbler, scrubbers, lava rock, marbles etc
Power input as close as you know
Insulation
Take off rate and percentage
Boiler size and percentage
Column height

EDIT : MISSED THE LAST BIT OF THIS POST SORRY

[warramungas]

10 liters an hour @ 92%? That is a phenomenal rate. Try to back it off to 8 or so and you should be able to get the strength up.

[aussiebrewer]

i think at that speeds it will smear too much, even on low wines and with a lot of power you can get a good high ABV but as for separation on neutral, nope

i would go maximum 3l/h on a 3" low wines run

power and reflux can cope to get ABV up, entertainment will be in overdrive though, i would back the power off a bit perhaps

[jl88]

Yeah well 5lt of 92% in 35 minutes is almost pot still mode. It is only good as a stripping run as everything is smeared together. The 1.8lt at 95% on 2200w (thought it was 2400w) is MUCH better than the 4lt at 93% on 4400w (thought it was 4800) My two 3500w stainless elements just arrived. Hopefully running 3500w yields the same quality but at a faster rate. perhaps I need a 4" reflux still... :D

[scythe]

Sounds like you need a power controller.
Could have saved yourself from buying the bigger elements by adjusting the voltage being applied to your current elements.

On a 4" bubbler often 2-3L/hr is quoted as a fast spirit run.
And when you think about the actual available ethanol in the boiler this seems reasonable.
At 1L/hr its only a 5hr run of a 50L wash after heat up, so maybe 6.5hrs after refluxing.

Those are great stripping speeds tho.

[aussiebrewer]

2200w on a spirit run with a full load of low wines will be more than enough power on a 3" rig. on a single run i would add maybe 20% power

as for run speeds. a 3" rig when refluxed and equalized should be able to do 2l/h comfortably on a single run given enough power, but not too much power that it smears in the column. on low wines maybe could push for 3l/h but wouldn't go faster

[Kenster]

jl, heres the thing that i dont understand...1.8lit@95%(2.2kw) v 4lit@93%(4.4kw)... you mention that 1.8lit is 'better'...
i get that we are all chasing the purest booze we can make, but really, is the 2% increase in purity something worth chasing as you are achieving two more lit in the same time frame.
Is there really a noticeable difference that is worth attaining? I am not sure...we just dilute it anyway?
I have a 3'' VM and cant even get close to those numbers...excellent work mate.

[Sam.]

Kenster we are only diluting what we already have, the cleaner it is the better it will be diluted.

The more smeared it is can actually be more offensive diluted IMO.

But as always everyone has their own benchmark of what good and bad is and as long as your happy with it then all good :D

[scythe]

Think of it like you were trying to purify some gungey, stankey, putrid water full of giardia and cryptospyridium.

You can boil it then use a really fine particle filter and bacterial filter maybe pass it through a reverse osmosis filter unit and get pure H2O.
Might take an hour per liter and you are really thirsty.

Or you can boil it and use a kitchen collender follower by a flour sieve to remove the chunkey bits.
But you can drink it in 20mins.

Which one would you prefer?
I would like option 1, even though i have to wait longer and get even thirstier in the end the water will be "tastier" and more enjoyable to drink.

The extra 2% can be tasted as we can detect most compounds in parts per million, so the 2% is an extra 20,000 units that could be something we dont like the taste or reaction it provokes.

[aussiebrewer]

:text-+1: :text-imwithstupid:

slower is better. the diameter of the column and other variables will set the speed to minimise entrainment. sure you might drop 2% and collect twice as fast but that is enough for everything to boil all together. think about all that force of 4400w on both elements pushing the falling vapour up faster than the equalisation can withstand. its going to smear. i have had 5-10lh on spirit run before at azeo and it was smeared as all fuck but i had enough packing height to keep it a high ABV output but it was smeared. way too fast. even tails was azeo, even though tails was smeared through whole run.

when tails finished it went from azeo to 0% in about 5 seconds, actually under 5 seconds, hadn't seen anything like that before. still this was due to high packing, separation and quality was shit. I did not drink any of it except for 1L of azeo out of 12L of azeo thats how bad it was and im not as picky as some but i hate heads

[hillzabilly]

I would run the hammer condencer on top of the LM head ya made and 3600wt would be the max for a 3inch spirit run in my opinion ,with a collection speed of no more than 3lt/hr,but I am a big fan of the LM stills so accept my bias,that should get ya pretty damn close to azeo,but as has been previously stated just because ya get azeo does not meen it will be 100% pure and tastless as some would expect.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Kenster]

Guys, Sam in particular, i am glad i posted what i did... i have learned a lot. Personally, i would not take off so fast so as to increase purity, but the replies have helped me to understand the whole deal just that bit more...cheers.

[jl88]

jl, heres the thing that i dont understand...1.8lit@95%(2.2kw) v 4lit@93%(4.4kw)... you mention that 1.8lit is 'better'...
i get that we are all chasing the purest booze we can make, but really, is the 2% increase in purity something worth chasing as you are achieving two more lit in the same time frame.
Is there really a noticeable difference that is worth attaining? I am not sure...we just dilute it anyway?
I have a 3'' VM and cant even get close to those numbers...excellent work mate.

Hey Kenster. That's what I thought as well when I fitted the second element and hoped for twice that take off. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Unfortunately as it has been pointed out the extra vapour must help push undesirables up the column further than a lower power would. Have tried various combinations of packing to mitigate this seemed useless. I guess because I used to run a still spirits spirit maker on their 2.2kw boiler with not even a 2" 40cm column, a 3" 1.5m column could easily handle double that. It can but at the sacrifice of quality.

Sounds like you need a power controller.
Could have saved yourself from buying the bigger elements by adjusting the voltage being applied to your current elements.

On a 4" bubbler often 2-3L/hr is quoted as a fast spirit run.
And when you think about the actual available ethanol in the boiler this seems reasonable.
At 1L/hr its only a 5hr run of a 50L wash after heat up, so maybe 6.5hrs after refluxing.

Those are great stripping speeds tho.

I did think about a power controller and saw an ssr set up. But the cost of the two elements was cheaper and if 3500w is the magic number than it will be easier as well. Besides who doesn't like faster heat up times lol. Still i can see lots of ssr controllers on www.5stardistilling.com.au etc but after searching forums etc I have no idea if they are the right ones. Perhaps you have a diy walk through that could work out cheaper? I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.

I feel as though if I continued stripping at those speeds purity would have dropped because their is almost no reflux. Much as a pot still drops away.

I would run the hammer condencer on top of the LM head ya made and 3600wt would be the max for a 3inch spirit run in my opinion ,with a collection speed of no more than 3lt/hr,but I am a big fan of the LM stills so accept my bias,that should get ya pretty damn close to azeo,but as has been previously stated just because ya get azeo does not meen it will be 100% pure and tastless as some would expect.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Well yes I am hoping that is the magic power I will be able to use. As for LM VS VM well I will have to do a side by side run I guess and compare. :D Have you run a vapour management? It's so much easier for me to run. Essentially I am a glorified bottle changer / temperature monitor lol. Did you find better taste in Liquid management?

Thanks again everyone.