FSD 2" Boka

Reflux still design and discussion

Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Gasman » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:30 pm

Carol wrote:Hi Geoff
I used my heads recently in an all heads run to see what I would get.(Reflux still - most of it was TPW heads - just one lot of Nutrigrain heads).
I added the tails to other spirit runs when I had space in the boiler ( reflux still again as I mostly make neutral).

I am sure Wellsy will have some info on what to do with them.

Anyway - it is lots of fun and a good learning curve. I hope you are keeping notes. It comes in handy later when you can;t remember what the hell you did!

Cheers
Carol


:)) lol yes I am keeping notes although badly organised.
And I've got so many washes down there I'm tripping over them :doh:
Seriously tho just read the kiwis guide to the galaxy of cuts.Im sort of understanding the whole concept now
One last dumb question (sorry )
It was a bit ambiguous in Kiwis guide to the galaxy but does one do cuts on a spirit run in reflux mode ( fsd ) as most of the references were to do with a pot still on a spirit run after doing stripping runs with say a bwko wash
So my question is if one does a few washes and then strip's them in the pot.Then combines them ( @40%abv ) for a neutral run in the reflux do we still do cuts?

:angry-banghead:
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby RC Al » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:33 pm

Heads from a pot run are worth recycling, from a neutral run, not so much...

I like my all feints from pot run through a pot again, but i aint making tpw
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Carol » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:53 pm

Hi Geoff
Absolutely cuts on a spirit run in reflux mode. I have 3 fermenters. I strip the washes with Natasha ( and fill up the fermenter while I mind the still). Then the low wines are run with Boris.
The Vegemite jars get used again - all numbered. Left to air and then I make the cuts. With practice I have got better at differentiating the different jars. I usually bottle in 600 ml lots and label the bottle with which jars of the run it was e.g jars 10/11 of 21. Heads and tails get reused later. I think when Covid was at its peak I used some heads for hand sanitiser too.

I keep notes on all washes and all runs.
(And all the recipes I make as well).

Cheers
Carol
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Wellsy » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:18 am

Good Morning Geoff

Looks like your questions have all been answered mate. My first spirit run I had an excel spread sheet and I recorded abv for every cuts jar ( I was using a parrot so got a live abv) . Like you I used the abv to tell me where to start looking for the heads/heart change point and Hearts/tails change point. I had absolutely no idea what I was looking for but started to realise it did not matter because tasting around those points I could tell what I liked and what I didn’t. Most of the time I could not tell you why I liked or disliked it but it did not matter as I would be the one drinking it

I keep all my feints, heads & tails , and do an all feints run - the feints from this get stored for future cleaning runs or tipped on driveway weeds, they at least die happy.

The Dunder from my spirit runs gets thrown out.

The BWKO is an awesome recipe and using backset to get your generational improvements makes a huge difference

I hope this helps mate, and the cuts part of the job will get a little easier but slowly lol. My notes give me a starting point on where to start looking next time
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Gasman » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:58 am

Thank you Wellsy
I do very much appreciate the time taken from you all to respond to my posts
I went and and re read some of my posts last night and some of my questions were answered with in them.I guess I overlooked your points as there was a lot to take in
I have done hundreds of spirit runs with my old essencia reflux and the basic concept never changed.Just collect what it gave you,combine it,water it down and flavour it.My results wernt bad,I mean I drank every drop for years and so I've basically had to be retrained and conceptuallyit was a lot to take in - what with the terminology etc
I also felt a tad embarrassed because after reading say the kiwis guide to the galaxy most of my questions were answered
I've also watched loads of you tube clips on UJSSM etc but they were all essentially pot still etc which I had no knowledge about
The HBS here in Cairns doesn't know anything about grains etc as its ' all to messy '
Anyway,even tho I'm bumbling along,so far my basic product from the FSD is heaps better than what I'm used to,so I am in front
So that is a plus...
So I've got another two ferments on with the Bwko - a second and third generation.And another corn flakes and TPW for neutrals ready to run as well so I've just got to get me a lot of little jars ..And I'm seeing now why a parrot is handy
I think ultimately one day I might get a bubbler,although I don't have any idea what it is,buti i must say I am drawn to the pot side now and quite intrigued with all the possibilities of what it can do
Thanks again for helping and ill have another read of the cuts section before I turn on the boka
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Wellsy » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:58 am

Gidday Geoff

Just a suggestion mate, as we all need to do what suits us. With your BWKO I would recommend you just do stripping runs and you might have misunderstood the generation concept a bit given you say you have a second and third generation ferment underway. I will try and be brief mate. if you want some real flavour try this as it will make a difference.
When your BWKO ferments out do a stripping run and add approx 5 litres of the backset into a bucket and mix in the sugar and grains add some cool water to get it back to 30 degrees and tip into the sludge left in the fermenting barrel. Wait a couple of hours and it will probably fire up again and if it doesn't add some more yeast to get it started. Congrats you have just made generation 2 do the same when gen 2 finishes fermenting and you will have gen 3. Currently you might have a gen 2 but you need a fermented gen 2 to get gen 3. I hope that makes sense. I run a 50 litre fermenter and usually get about 10 litres of low wines from my stripping runs. I am guessing you will get about half that from a 25 ( see how clever i am lol ) after 4 of these stripping runs you will have enough to do a spirit run and thats when the hard work happens. Ideally do this in the pot still mode as you want to preserve as much of that flavor as you can. As I said previously making cuts is so important and so difficult. I reread the cuts guide about 6 times a couple of them after my first spirit run before it started to click mate so no need for apologies.
Everyone wants everyone else to succeed on here it is an awesome space to spend time. If you like the brown spirits the pot side will serve you well, but the reflux will be there when you want to experiment with botanicals in neutrals.
Again no need for apologies or embarrassment mate we all struggle at different times, some of us even struggle all the time. There is so much to take in but after a little while things stick and it gets easier. The results are so worth it :)
Any questions just ask as BWKO is a fabulous recipe
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Gasman » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:30 pm

HI wellsy,
Yes I have got a greasy grip on the BWKO generations
I have two fermenters dedicated to it at the moment but I might upgrade that part of it to three or four ( I have 5 in total)
What i found though and maybe you can give me some advice here is the amount of backset put back in varies depending on the posters in the BWKO section
I read in Wikipedia that for it to be a bourbon or sour mash a miminum of 25% backset must be put back in.The original poster suggested 10 - 12 liters for a 25 l wash.I think this aspect is obviously an area for 'tweaking ' but so far I have followed that advice and replaced about 8 - 10 liters each time
Another small variable that i have done is in one fermenter I placed in the suggested amount of grain but in this one I put the ingredients thru a processor which mulched it up and the second fermenter I didnt ,instead I just put the grain in as it came out of the bag.I noticed when the time came to scoop out the lees ? ( 1 liter ) the mashed up fermenter was just a big sloppy sludge and I found it difficult to remove the 1 liter.BTW as I live in Cairns I am using cracked corn,rolled wheat ( wheat but can't remember if it rolled or not) and also caromalt as I couldn't find Barley
The wheat and caramalt used in the same proportion ie.2 corn :1 wheat : 1 caromalt

I found replacing the small quantity of unmashed grain in the unmashed fermenter to be really more user friendly and easy

My spirit run was done using the pot still obviously after the stripping runs but I did put 2 rolls of copper in like Carol suggested.I guess this aspect is also variable


If you have time at any stage please feel free to offer up any tweaks you may have found that enhances what im doing recipe wise or any advice with the pot set up Obviously you may not have the FSD 2 inch job etc and that aspect may not be relevant.

With thanks Geoff
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby The Stig » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:33 pm

25% backset will make your wash way too acidic.
I only ever did 5% when doing generations. This was enough to melt the sugar going into the next wash
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby bluc » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:40 pm

I get away with 25% in all grain due to buffering ability of grain but not in sugarhead sour mash. I generally just use the yeast trub thats left in bottom..or ph crashs to hell..
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Wellsy » Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:01 pm

Gidday Geoff

I went with the 5 litres per 25 litre wash because it worked for me and gives good additional flavours.
I use cracked corn , barley and I swapped the wheat for some malted rye. I will do my next batch as per original recipe as it is nice to have a couple of flavour options.
Using backset you just need to be careful of your wash get to acidic low PH or it will slow the ferment or even stop it.

Experiment with the flavours you like and remember , within safety limits, it is all about what you enjoy. Just when you think you have the flavours sorted with the ingredients you can then try different aging woods at different ABVs lol. From what i have been able to work out so far Oats and wheat tend to give you a fuller mouth feel as much as alter flavour so you have got that to work with. All these experiments and we are still only using 1 recipe.

Then you can try infusions and all grains and fruits and different yeasts, you might need a few more fermenters :laughing-rolling:

Enjoy it mate, stick with the cuts, doesnt mater if you done know why you done like that jar, what matters is that you know you dont like it. If you are unsure move to the next jar as usually that will be the one you taste and know definitely one way or another.
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby BigRig » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:33 pm

Picked up the boka and pot attachment today (thanks 5 star distilling). Will be sure to ask questions and share experiences as i go.
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Andrew » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:26 pm

Thanks for calling in this Big Rig , was nice chatting.
And thanks for the “test still” to get the adapters made
Cheers
Andrew :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Gasman » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:06 am

Good morning folks
I had a few queries after a reasonable successful spirit run using the reflux column assy on my FSD boka
I decided to re run some previous spirit runs after it transpired I simply collected all the spirit without doing cuts and so this was my result.
I filled the boiler up and diluted to 40 % then after it eventually reached 78 % I waited and turned down the voltage to not even 50 % - which equated to about 100 v.I collected in 600ml jars
So what i found happened was that as I progressively collected because my voltage was so low i needed the off take valve pretty well open.
And I slowly needed to increase the voltage to maintain the drip rate.
I have spent time reading one of the articles in the forum but I think it related more to a VM style still and not a LM style still and please correct me if I'm wrong this technique is not the proper way to run the still.- having it just dribble out at the lowest voltage possible which still maintains 78 degrees
So I turned the voltage up to 170v and closed the off take valve quite substantially to maintain the drip rate to what I considered was a nice and slow ( abt 1 liter/ hr )
Eventually as time passed i could here the still refluxing

So im thinking this is a better way of running the still ? Having the temp high enough to reflux but not to high that it over powers it and control the offtske as slow as possible with the valve ?

My result which is my second dilema is that I collected
14 jars @ 600ml
And to be honest every jar smells the same and so to I roughly approximate where my heats start and finish would I simply assume they are the middle one third 5 jars and based on that keep these
To help me here get a handle on this aspect of it now should i dilute the first and last of these 5 jars to 65 % to compare the taste ? And maybe work outwards from there to try gain a discernible taste change to properly lock in the changeovers?
And after ive potentially pinpointed this side of the equation throw the rest in a feints barrel to do a dedicated feints run in time ? All the spirit came out roughly at the same abv with the still stable at 78 degrees until it rose at jar 13 to 79 and then quickly to 82 when I shut it down
Many thanks and regards Geoff
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Wellsy » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:17 am

Sorry Geoff but I have no reflux experience at all so can’t give any comments about that.

As for tasting your cuts you are best diluting down to 40 % or even lower when looking for tails.
I have a glass medicine cup that I use . 15 mil of spirit and 15 mil of distilled water. I like a big taste not tiny sips lol.
I actually do not drink it when tasting and break the habit of a life time and spit it out once tasted
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby RC Al » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:28 am

Unfortunately you can run too slow
You potentially have put heads through the whole lot
The correct amount of power is needed to create the reflux required to get the separation desired

Opening the valve like that meant no reflux was going back down the packing

Chuck it all back in, set the power arround 2000w , run it as slow as you like from there with the valve. Use more cut jars.
Last edited by RC Al on Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby BigRig » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:37 am

I am only new to the FSD boka but i have run an el cheapo boka for a few years now and i must admit i never use a power controller to adjust flow rates, thats what the needle valve is for, anything that is not taken off will simply rise and fall in reflux until it can be taken off. If you dont give it enough heat to reflux then you are not letting the still do what it is designed to do.

I do the spirit run, throw fores and make cuts. I do cuts of 250ml. Starting in the middle jar, i dilute it down, and taste. Go to the next jar either side and repeat working my way towards each end. When i get a taste i dont like i stop. Everything else gets kept as feints for later use.

Others can correct me if i am wrong but you should only need to use the power controller if you have the pot still attachment and are using it in pot still configuration for a spirit run.

For reference my boiler has 2 elements 1900 & 500 watts. I use both to heat up boiler, once i hit temp (the boka head is hot) i turn the 500w off and run with 1900w the whole run.
Last edited by BigRig on Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Carol » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:54 am

Hi Geoff
Sounds like you are getting a handle on things.
I run Boris at full power until it reaches temperature ( about one hour). Turn power down to maintain temperature and allow to reflux for 45 minutes (valve closed). Open valve until I get drip drip dribble ( around 1 litre to 1 1/2 litres per hour). It can vary a bit so a bit of valve fiddling can be required. I take it off in measuring jugs so I can time it.

I let the jars air a bit and then smell them. Yes at first they all smell the same. I use a similar method to Wellsy with tasting but dilute it down to 1:2 ( 5 ml spirit, 10 ml water). Eventually you will train your palate to identify the differences in taste and smell.

I often use the jars that are "a bit headsy" or "a bit tailsy" for want of a better description in a Baileys style cream liqueur where there is lots of flavour ( and sugar) so any slight taste in the neutral can't be detected in the final product.

Cheers
Carol
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby BigRig » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:04 pm

Does this https://5stardistilling.com/product/3-4-90-bend-2/ fit the end of the pc on the pot still attachment ?
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Gasman » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:14 pm

Thank you all
I'm doing another run to try ace it this time :))
It will be the 4th spirit run with the same faints and hopefully I will minimise a few more mistakes and get closer to what's considered good practice
Stay tuned ....... :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Last edited by Gasman on Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FSD 2" Boka

Postby Wellsy » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:17 pm

They are not mistakes Geoff
They are simply “practical learning exercises “, I always tend to remember my practical learning exercises a lot more than any theoretical mistakes lol
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