Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Reflux still design and discussion

Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:58 pm

Hi.
I've only done about 4 or 5 runs with a T500 I bought second hand late last year.
When I got it, the column packing was copper saddles at the top, and ceramic saddles in the remainder of the column. Pretty sure these were just the standard amounts of materials supplied with the kit at original purchase.
First run I did was a turbo yeast (including the carbon treatment etc etc - just like the instruction book says). Wasn't too bad, although a little smelly (slight nail polish remover smell).
Then I found this site, did lots of reading, and switched to TPW.
I also changed the column packing to copper saddles at the top, and SS scrubbers beneath that (removed the ceramics).
Next couple of runs, similar results to the first one (Turbo) and similarly smelly.
I expected the TPW to be less smelly than the Turbo, but it's been about the same.
So I'm thinking it must be the T500 itself. So exhaustively cleaned all my packing materials and the column itself - citric acid for the copper and through the column. Gave the whole rig a vinegar run.
Added some more copper saddles at the top.
Now thinking it's surely squeaky clean, I did my next TPW run. Still that nail polish remover smell !!
Not sure what's going wrong.
I've been making the TPW exactly as the Tried & Proven recipe. The fermentation has been running on schedule etc. SG reading before distillation at 990.
The actual distillation run - every time - has been going very similar. Just as I've read other people's do. Slowly....drip drip drip dribble etc - around 4 -5 hours total, and getting around 2.5 Litres at around 92% ABV.
But can't get rid of that smell.
The T500 seems to operate correctly...the only thing I could say against that, is that there is a tiny tiny leakage of alcohol at the point where the alcohol take-off (water inlet) meets the column. It's only the formation of a drip there maybe every 30 seconds or less, and it evaporates immediately once it falls to the lid of the boiler. But...full disclosure and all that LOL.
Sooo....if anyone has any clues or suggestions, I'd love to hear them please.
Happy to provide as much extra detail as I can, if needed.
Cheers
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Doubleuj » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:17 pm

Are you doing cuts? And what abv are you smelling it at?
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:26 pm

Doubleuj wrote:Are you doing cuts? And what abv are you smelling it at?


Since starting the TPW I've been doing cuts of 200 ml. The smell is through every cut. Yes, worse at the beginning, but still there all the way along.
Smells bad at 90+% straight off the still. Still not good at 90% after 48 hrs airing. And still ordinary at 40%. One or 2 of the batches I thought it might be OK to drink after flavouring, but while I could maybe struggle through it, it's not drinkable.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Tesla101 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:09 pm

Sounds like you're smearing fores/heads through the run.

Are you doing a stripping run and then a spirit run, or just a single pass?

Although running by cooling outlet temp is not a measure of how well it's running, out of curiosity what is the running temp?
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:16 pm

Tesla101 wrote:Sounds like you're smearing fores/heads through the run.

Are you doing a stripping run and then a spirit run, or just a single pass?

Although running by cooling outlet temp is not a measure of how well it's running, out of curiosity what is the running temp?


No, I haven't done any stripping runs. Just single passes. I did try to redistill one batch, to try to improve it, but it still smelt poorly (maybe a tiny bit better, but not a lot).
Generally my cooling outlet temp is around 50 degrees C. +/- 2 degrees
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Tesla101 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:38 pm

Hmm. Do you know if the previous owner did any DIY repairs on it? Like trying to fix a leak with liquid nails or something not food grade? Some pics of the plastic at the top might help.

The only other things that comes to mind are - did you replace the take off hose with copper? Are you using any plastic collection jars? Have you packed the column with SS scrubbers too tight? What are you fermenting in - is it food grade?

Otherwise I'd probably recommend trying a fresh stripping run, then diluting it to ~30% (about 10L in the boiler) and then a slow spirit run. I find that if I do my spirit run with the needle valve fully open I start getting drips at about 36 degrees and then a drip, drip, dribble at around 42 and by the time I'm into tails it's around 46 degrees. The lower and slower you go, the better your neutral will be.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:53 pm

Tesla101 wrote:Hmm. Do you know if the previous owner did any DIY repairs on it? Like trying to fix a leak with liquid nails or something not food grade? Some pics of the plastic at the top might help.

The only other things that comes to mind are - did you replace the take off hose with copper? Are you using any plastic collection jars? Have you packed the column with SS scrubbers too tight? What are you fermenting in - is it food grade?

Otherwise I'd probably recommend trying a fresh stripping run, then diluting it to ~30% (about 10L in the boiler) and then a slow spirit run. I find that if I do my spirit run with the needle valve fully open I start getting drips at about 36 degrees and then a drip, drip, dribble at around 42 and by the time I'm into tails it's around 46 degrees. The lower and slower you go, the better your neutral will be.


Nah, no idea if any repairs/mods were made to it - although there's nothing I can see externally.
(Part of the reason I posted elsewhere about tearing it apart - to see if there was anything internally that might be responsible).
I'll confess to not replacing the take-off hose yet (it's on my list) - although during the most recent run I took the hose off for a while and held a collection jar direct to the outlet - same result.
All collection jars are glass.
Added an extra SS scrubber (now 5) for latest run, to see if that helped, but again, same result.
Fermenter is food grade. Although I have wondered whether there might be something about it that would contribute to my problem. Would there be a way to tell from the wash if it was "corrupt" somehow?

I'll probably try the strip/spirit run next unless some more obvious solution appears. But I've torn my hair out reading for a solution, and nothing yet.
On my unit, with cooling needle full open, I doubt I'd get any spirit ever. Once the wash is boiling along proper, I have to adjust the cooling flow down to get the outlet temp up and alcohol flowing. Probably around mid 40's to start, and then it's close to 50 for that nice flow. At those temps/flow I go through a 25 litre wash in around 5 hours (including heating up).

I'll get some pics tomorrow if you think it'll help

PS - I've read some threads about packing the column. Many suggest more copper (especially mesh) is useful. Could adding mesh help things???
Last edited by nudder12 on Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Tesla101 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:24 am

It sounds like everything you're doing is right. I can't think of anything else, apart from doing the strip/spirit run next time. I strip mine with the allembic pot head and usually pull about 6L in around 2 hours, but you should be able to do a stripping run with the reflux column in about the same time by just running it a bit faster. I wouldn't take it over about 65 degrees though. I'd also leave the packing in, it will help keep it running a bit cooler.

For the spirit run, it's good if you can keep the still in full reflux for about half an hour before taking off any spirit. (Something I can't do with mine for some reason, maybe your needle valve is a bit bigger than mine) This will help separate the more volatile (like methanol, propanols and acetate) alcohols from the less ones (ethanol), which you can then each of them off slowly. It will mean that your spirit run will take longer, but should be easier to make cuts and hopefully end up with a better product. I ran mine as slow as I could for an experiment once and it took 11.5 hours from switch on to off, but I did end up with a lot more hearts and a lot less heads/tails (but more concentrated) as a result.

As for the packing, mine has the copper saddles and the little spiky stainless steel saddles it came with and it's fine. I don't think replacing the scrubbers with copper mesh would help too much.

The TPW should taste like weak tomato paste mixed with weak alcohol when it's finished fermenting. As for smell, I lost my sense of smell, but I just asked my daughter to smell mine as they have almost finished fermenting. She described it as a bit like cooked tomato combined with a Sharpie - Sharpie being the alcohol smell. I have aquarium heaters set to about 28 degrees in my fermenters.

Also, just wanted to double check - you said your following the T&P TPW recipe. Does that mean you're using baker's yeast and not turbo yeast? I hope you're not using turbo.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:57 am

Tesla101 wrote:It sounds like everything you're doing is right. I can't think of anything else, apart from doing the strip/spirit run next time. I strip mine with the allembic pot head and usually pull about 6L in around 2 hours, but you should be able to do a stripping run with the reflux column in about the same time by just running it a bit faster. I wouldn't take it over about 65 degrees though. I'd also leave the packing in, it will help keep it running a bit cooler.

For the spirit run, it's good if you can keep the still in full reflux for about half an hour before taking off any spirit. (Something I can't do with mine for some reason, maybe your needle valve is a bit bigger than mine) This will help separate the more volatile (like methanol, propanols and acetate) alcohols from the less ones (ethanol), which you can then each of them off slowly. It will mean that your spirit run will take longer, but should be easier to make cuts and hopefully end up with a better product. I ran mine as slow as I could for an experiment once and it took 11.5 hours from switch on to off, but I did end up with a lot more hearts and a lot less heads/tails (but more concentrated) as a result.

As for the packing, mine has the copper saddles and the little spiky stainless steel saddles it came with and it's fine. I don't think replacing the scrubbers with copper mesh would help too much.

The TPW should taste like weak tomato paste mixed with weak alcohol when it's finished fermenting. As for smell, I lost my sense of smell, but I just asked my daughter to smell mine as they have almost finished fermenting. She described it as a bit like cooked tomato combined with a Sharpie - Sharpie being the alcohol smell. I have aquarium heaters set to about 28 degrees in my fermenters.

Also, just wanted to double check - you said your following the T&P TPW recipe. Does that mean you're using baker's yeast and not turbo yeast? I hope you're not using turbo.


Yes, I'm using baker's yeast :)
I don't notice any smell in the fermented wash that's anything like the nail polish remover. I've never actually tasted the wash!
I've got heaters on order as we speak. Until now my washes have been fermenting probably a bit cool, but they've always still finished off in a week or so and had a satisfactory SG reading at the end. Would fermenting too cool be a problem otherwise?? All TPW discussion I've read has said it's very forgiving and you can't do much wrong, including with temperatures, so since mine finishes off OK I figured it was all OK.
And, pardon my ignorance....I have read a LOT of the stuff on this forum, and I've seen people talk about keeping it in full reflux for a while, but I've never seen an actual explanation of what that means. How does one actually keep it in full reflux before taking off spirit?
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby The Stig » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 pm

Run water faster, in a T500 try keeping the outgoing water temp at around 40 deg.
This will hold full reflux and stack the column.
Then after 20 mins or so you can slow the water down a little and slowly pull off the Foreshots and heads
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:10 pm

The Stig wrote:Run water faster, in a T500 try keeping the outgoing water temp at around 40 deg.
This will hold full reflux and stack the column.
Then after 20 mins or so you can slow the water down a little and slowly pull off the Foreshots and heads


Ahh, thanks for that.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Tesla101 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:24 pm

:text-+1: to what The Stig said.

For a more detailed explanation of how reflux works, check out The Compleat Distiller if you haven't already. Chapter 5 explains the different types of distillation.

I don't think fermenting TPW at a lower temperature will be a problem. Baker's yeast works down to about 18 degrees I believe
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:41 pm

Thanks so much for all the replies and advice. Really appreciate it.
I'll give the strip/spirit run a go and see what happens. Fingers crossed.
Have to say I'm not terribly confident, since everything else I've tried hasn't made any real difference.
Which leaves me thinking the actual column is somehow not performing it's function properly - but I don't understand the actual mechanics/chemistry of how it works very well.
Once I tried to read some stuff about what substances boil off at what temperatures etc, but it got sooo technical I needed a science degree. And even then there were people saying "ahh, but...." so it was clear as mud to me :)

Thinking further ahead, if things don't improve, I'll have to seriously doubt the column. I recently stumbled online across someone local who apparently produces great neutral spirit, so I'm likely to get in touch with them to compare some notes. I think they use a super reflux still - which I don't know anything about - so I'll do some reading about those first to see if the knowledge is transferrable to my T500.

Again, thanks for the help.
Hopefully I can report better outcomes soon.
Cheers for now.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby The Stig » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:09 pm

I ran a T500 for a good 7 years and it took me a while to get it all down pat .
I did get to the point where the product I was producing was more that acceptable .
Sure it’s not bubbler good but there a nothing wrong with the T500 once you learn its limitations and work around them.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:50 pm

The Stig wrote:I ran a T500 for a good 7 years and it took me a while to get it all down pat .
I did get to the point where the product I was producing was more that acceptable .
Sure it’s not bubbler good but there a nothing wrong with the T500 once you learn its limitations and work around them.


That's all I'm looking for. I drink spirit with mixers anyway, so it doesn't need to be world class or award winning.
Just a bit of fun, a hobby to spend time on, and saving $$ in the process.
As long as I can get that acceptable outcome, I doubt I'll ever upgrade etc. My efforts will probably go toward finding the best flavouring techniques.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Thu May 13, 2021 1:41 am

Hi. Reviving the thread.
Since last time, I've tried doing a stripping run then a spirit run, and added a copper off-take pipe, but really any difference to the end result is minimal - still got that awful smell throughout the product.
I'm getting somewhat frustrated by it now. (well, a while ago actually).
So I'm thinking there must be some issue with my condensor (rusty inside or something????)
Was tempted to try more copper saddles/mesh in there, but reading the forum it seems it would make little difference.
So I'm wondering .....would switching to a copper T500 condensor probably improve things?
I know people will suggest ditching the T500 altogether, but - and yes this might sound weird - I'm happy with it overall. It's simple, I'm used to how it operates, and I think it is capable of giving me the end product I want, and it's inexpensive.
Anyone got answers/opinions on the copper T500 V the stainless version?
Also, would the packing for the column remain the same?
Cheers in advance.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby howard » Thu May 13, 2021 11:59 am

have you mentioned what boiler you're using and how you are controlling the boil?
don't know much about t500 but if the boiler isn't being run properly, i don't think any amount of tinkering with any column would prevent smearing?
the TPW is usually bullet proof.
just trying to eliminate the obvious :smile:
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby Wellsy » Thu May 13, 2021 3:45 pm

I have not used the T500 , or a reflux still for that matter. I did have an issue with stinky product, it made such a difference when I put copper in the vapour trail . Acetone smell on the other hand I always associate with the heads. Reading your description of stinky it sounds like it is acetone ( the clue was you saying it smelt like acetone ) which as everyone is suggesting sounds like smearing.
Howard might be on the right track asking how you control the boil, if you control the boil. Turning it on and off rather than reducing the voltage supply will give you that smearing across the run. Hang in there the guys will help get this sorted out for you.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby nudder12 » Thu May 13, 2021 11:14 pm

Thanks for the responses Howard & Wellsy.
I'm not quite sure how one describes a T500 boiler, except it's a 30 litre urn with a heating element under the base of the actual urn - i.e. the wash doesn't come into contact with the element. Also, there is no temperature control for the heat. Distillation temp is managed by controlling water flow through the condensor.
I do already have copper saddles in the condensor/vapour trail. Am wondering if more would help but I think I have at least the recommended amount already.
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Re: Stinky product - T500 & TPW

Postby howard » Fri May 14, 2021 12:08 am

just had a look at a t500 boiler, it's got a 2000w element?
i'm not sure of the 500 set-up, but wouldn't power control still be necessary?
surely a 2000w would be boiling too vigorously and be smearing everything in the column and not allowing any EQ or fractions to form?
maybe :?
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