My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Reflux still design and discussion

My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby jl88 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:20 pm

Hey all.

Building a 3" VM still (down the road want to add LM)

I want it to be modular as it will be easier to modify, store and clean, but chose stainless due to availability and price of parts. Hopefully a full copper mesh packing will allow for sulphide removal. I'm hoping all of you more experienced users will look over these plans and point out any flaws or possible improvements that will help. Sorry about the sloppy drawings but it has never been my strength.

The plans are below. I have made a condensed. Double wound. It is 260mm long with outer coil diameter of 60mm and inner coil diameter of 28mm with loose copper mesh between all surfaces. 1/4" heavy wall copper pipe. About 9m of copper tube. Mains water pressure only.

I'm worried that my condenser is too big (if possible) I haven't been able to find any sure bet condenser size for a 3" VM still. Most sources say an 8" double coil is plenty. So I figured 10" is better. Maybe not. Didn't factor in water flow resistance etc.

So here are my many questions.

1) Please point out ANY minor improvements you may observe. I like to observe all options.
2) should I use discs to centre reflux. If so how many and where (see varied opinions)
3) condenser size? Will it hurt
4) Liebig condenser. Is it too narrow? My research indicates it should be okay.
5) Heating element power regulation. Is it enough to simply turn one off once boiled? It should I incorporate an SSR regulator.

Thanks and all the best!
Jack
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby jl88 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:29 pm

Image

Image

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jl88
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:17 pm
Location: Melbourne Victoria
equipment: Retired (Turbo boiler Still spirits spirit maker copper reflux still)
50lt boiler. 2x 2200w elements
1.5m 3" reflux column copper/stainless packing
Thor's hammer condeser. LM and VM take off
3" pot still head with a bit off copper mesh :-)

Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby r0bsk1 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:32 pm

Hi Jack! (always wanted to say that on a plane :scared-eek: )
Just wondered how you got on with the build. Its exactly what im looking at building but in 4"
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby scythe » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:41 am

Wow this one slipped under the radar,
only thing i can possibly see is it that you dont mention a hole in the of your column.
VM stills need a hole in the top because you can close the take off valve and if you do there is no where for the pressure to go so you risk "exploding" very hot steam and liquid everywhere, if your lucky.

Hole only has to be 5mm or so.
13mm if your feeling nervous.
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby warramungas » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:14 am

Wow. I don't remember this one. Must've been a big posting day.
Ignore me if I'm wrong but will that product condenser handle the power of your boiler if you decide to use it as a stripping column (or run as a pot still)?
I like to have extra capability built in so I have room to move if I want to play. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:14 pm

If your worried about restrictions in your coil, add a coldfinger (3/3" or 1/2") and run both coils in parallel.
If a coil is too big you will only use the bottom part of it -no problem
If useing a 3/4" over 1/2" you may need a vent to prevent surging.
Or you could do 1" over 3/4" without vent but will need a wire coil to add turbulance.
Centering rings will be beneficial on 3" and can be placed at the top of the 2 packed module.
Whats your boiler power ? If its the T500 run it flatout...
3 " would handle up 3600w for a high reflux ratio pending on packing type and density.
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:36 pm

Jack... nice build...
I am in the middle of a 3" build..1 m @ 3" copper column though... simpler format without tri's...hope i didnt stuff up.
Question i have is... how much packing is required up the col...all the way up to the 'T', or just a bit below to help with turbulence. AND,
Jack, what kind of distance do you have from the T (takeoff) to the end, thru the vale and to the downward elbow into the Liebig...
can this distance be too long or short from the T to the valve for it to work properly?
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby WTDist » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:13 pm

Meatheadinc wrote:If your worried about restrictions in your coil, add a coldfinger (3/3" or 1/2") and run both coils in parallel.

so do you mean 1" and 1/2"... being 3/3" is 1"? :teasing-tease:
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:04 pm

Opps typo. 3/8
3/8" = the same cross sectional area as 2× 1/4"
But 1" or 3/4" would also work and will be easier to attach the coils to.
@ kenster. The horzontal should be short rather than long. To long and the syphon effect of the vapour calapse will be reduced.
Packing up to tee.
Insulating the tee and valve is also benificial
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:47 pm

Thanks MHI
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:21 pm

Well...as we all know...the plot thickens.
My simple VM build is coming along nicely, parts sourced, column getting taller,solder n gas sorted, (Bank overdraft approved...lol) ..all going well EXCEPT, now i have the option of incorporating a LM component into the whole deal.
Why not, says he, nothing ventured...
Suppose what i am asking is .. Is there a more efficient/effective/better LM design than the standard plated Boka... i kind of am lead to believe that it is not entirely efficient, since the basic design, there have been several mods which fix some of its drawbacks...
all of which i CAN NOT find anywhere..is there a better LM unit than the Boka?
HEEEELP
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equipment: Still Spirits... turbo 500...retired.(Boiler retained, added 3kw element with variable temp)
RPG...3''x1200mm LM/VM combo...400mm double wound coldie
3''x1200mm copper pot & shares leibig from combo.

Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:15 pm

I have a 2" LM over VM with a slant plate boka head that served me well for a number of years
I have no problem with the slant plate design although many perfer the dual reducer LM design. (See macs boka)
Both will have similar performance.

If using a proportional splitting VM a LM can be attacted to the reflux condensor side. Nixon stone style

Although i love this design personally i would stick to an inline design.
Last edited by Sam. on Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed link
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:19 pm

MH... appreciate all your input n sorry about late reply.
Do u mean a copper 'reducer' (to centre the condensate back into the middle of the col) ie. an inverted copper reducer?..under the plates
otherwise, i dont know what u mean.
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:03 pm

125x75TwoReducerColumn.jpg

Thermo to be added on bottom reducer... mirror of take off.
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby WTDist » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:20 pm

Meatheadinc wrote:
125x75TwoReducerColumn.jpg

Thermo to be added on bottom reducer... mirror of take off.

ohh so is this how the reducer bokas work. Did not know that. looks interesting
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:48 pm

Meat.thanks again...you really are my go to guy by the look of things...really appreciate your help.
A really serious concern i have is the 'sizing' ...
i wish to place my (newly recommended Boka build) above my VM take off..not going with plates but will use the 'collector' type reducer internally.
I have a 3" copper col with a dual coil (1" tube) coldfinger of about 380mm...Fark..didnt realise how much tubing went into it (nearly broke the bank) but i suppose, when you get so far, you just cant quit...sorry...rambling
is there a "correct" distance/placement the Boka guts should be placed, relative to the top of the VM take off.
ie. how far below the cold finger and how far above the VM body should it sit...is it essential or is there some wiggle room where an inch higher or lower will not really make a difference...
i just dont want to go to all this trouble for it not to work properly.
Thanks for your info the other day and i did see Brads still.. not sure what it meant, but could not open the second link...no biggie..you have me sorted.
Ken
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:39 pm

There is some wiggle room.
Generally the LM is used for bleeding Heads and fores then use the VM for hearts.
During equalization the lighter fraction will move to the top of the column so the LM head can also be used as a heads trap to some extent when you switch to VM. Eg..a little extra distance wont hurt.

Having them as close together as possible is a plus as it lowers overall height.
You will need to add an "umbrella" type diversion on top of the the reducer to direct flow to the sides of the collection area to avoid reflux going straight through the reducer and bypassing the collection area. (Relfux coils generally center reflux).
Cutting down the reducer at the top to minimize the pool depth will reduce smearing.
Although most run the LM and VM to different sides you could run the LM takeoff into the top of the PC on the VM branch and use the one take off. Although you may want to discard the first of the VM take off to clean any residual heads from the PC .

This as another take on the lm vm concept.
Drawing by "stubbydrainer"

This design can help reduce overall height.

Screenshot_2016-04-24-22-24-40-1.png


The condensor is a hizontal coil in a tee section from the split.
It will all also need a slight angle from horizontal to drain the LM effectively. And a vent hole is on the up hill side of the condensor
The VM valve would be better placed at the top at the split to prevent pooling. Thermo marked in green.
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:57 pm

Meat...you da man...
how does a smaller pool reduce smearing, i thought the LM was meant to capture the fores/hearts very nicely AND at the end, after VM hearts collection, revert back and scrounge as much remaining juice out of the tails...which the VM is not good at collecting.
ie. switch to VM for hearts, LM for either side
PS.. i was aware of the cover to the reducer, but begs the question...the coldfinger is good at directing the condensate straight gown the middle, back into the main mix. Now, with the 'lid' blocking the downward path, isnt it a bit of a waste...or does it just fall onto the cap, trickle into the pool and make its way back into the main body/packing for further reflux.)after it overflows the pooled area.
By the way, love the 'heart / lung machine' you have as an avatar... shows i dont know much...ha ha.
Got a bit lost...not sure if i sent this off. sorry if it has gone twice.
Kenster
 
Posts: 643
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:53 pm
equipment: Still Spirits... turbo 500...retired.(Boiler retained, added 3kw element with variable temp)
RPG...3''x1200mm LM/VM combo...400mm double wound coldie
3''x1200mm copper pot & shares leibig from combo.

Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Meatheadinc » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:16 pm

does it just fall onto the cap, trickle into the pool and make its way back into the main body/packing for further reflux.)after it overflows the pooled area.
yes.
The overflow is also centered by the smaller pipe extending through the bottom reducer

A smaller pool at the collection holds less volume. In the case of heads and fores at equalization they will continually condensed and reboiled.until bleed out. A larger collection area will cause more good alcohol to be contaminated with these fractions as they move up the column.
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equipment: 2" LM/VM on 30L boiler
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Re: My first still build. Modular 3" Vapour Management VM

Postby Kenster » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:04 pm

thanks...appreciate your knowledge...
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