Changing ph

[bluc]

So i always read calcium carbonate to decrease acidity. But in practice doesnt dissolve in water and have found its much better as a preventative(buffer) than a ph changer..so have been reading about calcium hydrocloride, water soluble and it increases ph better. Any reason not to use it? Anyone with chemistry background?

[Teddysad]

I have always used calcium hydroxide aka hydrated lime Ca(OH)2 which IS soluble at low temperatures. It is super cheap and easily available.
It is widely used in the food industry so is very safe

[bluc]

Is it better after the fact eg stalled wash or as a buffer? Prevent stalled wash..

[warramungas]

Did you mean calcium hypochlorate? Thats bleach and probably not so good for the yeast or for you.
You need a free OH (hydroxyl) to bond to the free hydrogen and form water raising the pH.
Lime has two and caco3 forms co2 and 1 OH (normally). The more OH something has the better it raises the pH.
Calcium is inert and doesnt mess with the wash much and the less stuff in it the better so be careful of anything youre putting in your wash.
From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

[Teddysad]

From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here

[warramungas]

From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here

As i said, dont quote me but is the sheet talking about dissolved caco3 in water?
Otherwise thered' be no shellfish in the ocean. Caco3 is naturally stable in water, ie. A solid which has little effect on ph until it encounters acidic conditions and dissolves. Lime can have a huge effect on ph as its happy to dissolve naturally until it reaches its happy place which i guess is the 12.5 ph you stated there.
Edit: I'll add that ph has no need to get anywhere near that high for our process and calcium carbonste is cheap and easy even for begginners to use cause you cant really mess up with it. You can mess up if you add too much lime.

[Amberale]

Interesting guys.
I have found that with Freddy’s VFV, I adjust the PH to 5 with citric acid,when adding the yeast but that a day or two later the PH will have dropped to 3.5 or so.
I have tried baggies of shell grit and a calcium product fron the HBS and neither seem to have done much.
The washes fermented out to 990 but took a couple of weeks even with aquarium heaters set to 26C.

[bluc]

Did you mean calcium hypochlorate? Thats bleach and probably not so good for the yeast or for you.
You need a free OH (hydroxyl) to bond to the free hydrogen and form water raising the pH.
Lime has two and caco3 forms co2 and 1 OH (normally). The more OH something has the better it raises the pH.
Calcium is inert and doesnt mess with the wash much and the less stuff in it the better so be careful of anything youre putting in your wash.
From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

Actually think it may have been what teddysad said. I got mixed up with calcium chloride but believes that makes it more acidic?
Edit you reakon we better sticking with calcium carbonate? If so I will.

[db1979]

Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible.

Warra is spot on, the calcium carbonate will sit undissolved if the acid gets neutralised.

Calcium chloride will lower pH as it reacts with water to make calcium hydroxide and hydrogen ion. But I'm guessing it won't get any lower than pH 4 at absolute most.

[db1979]

Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.

[Teddysad]

From memory (dont quote me) equilibrium is somewhere around 6.2 pH for caco3 (wont dissolve higher than that point) so how much higher did you want your wash?
Warra

1 g per litre will take it up to about 12.5pH at 25º C according to the spec sheet I have here

My error it was calcium hydroxide to which I was referring a product I generally use for pH adjustment

https://www.lime.org/documents/lime_bas ... emical.pdf

[EziTasting]

Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.

I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).

Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(

[db1979]

I'd give up on kale mate.

[Teddysad]

a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash

[EziTasting]

a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash

Haha, yours already has my vote! Love you’re FFV, both for the speed and the cleanliness of the final product!

I'd give up on kale mate.

I am hearing you! aaaand I am 75% of the way there... just hate that I can’t beat it!

[warramungas]

Something ive noticed whenmessing with ph is it seems to take a lot more hydroxide to neutralize H+ than you think you'll need. Its not a teaspoon full every now and then. A teaspoon of lye in water makes a huge difference as nothingis there to counteract it but in an acid solution it has less of an effect as its consumed.
I cant be naffed trying to figure out how much caco3 you'll need to raise a 25 liter wash from a 3.2 pH back to a 5ish (had a few too many carlton drys) but Im betting more than you think and like a tea bag would probably need some form of occassional agitation to mix through and dissolve properly unless in a very finely powdered state. Probably need a good stir then as well.

[warramungas]

Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.

I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).

Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(

Missed this. Thats the solubility of caco3 in pure water at equilibrium. 0.025 grams per liter which is roughly 0.625 grams for 25 liters @7 ph.
Im guessing from previous mucking around with acids youll probably be talking a kg+ to dissolve to drive the ph from 3 to 5. If you put some in and it has FULLY dissolved and your pH is still low you have yet to add enough. Emphasis on dissolved as undissolved solids have no effect on pH.

[warramungas]

Not sure I made it clear enough, calcium carbonate is your go-to for raising pH. Oven dried egg shells are a great cheap source.

I did try these, but I am thinking I am doing it wrong as even a cup of shell grit at the start is not cutting it for me... (specifically referring to the Kale Wash) it takes aaaaaaages! I'm talking months! and in the end it seems to always stall high (~1.030ish) and tastes sweet & sour. I've had a pH (last week) of 3.2 so added some bicarb (all i had and at this stage - 4th attempt at this recipe) I just want to find out WHY I can't get this to work. :angry-banghead:

Every other account I read seems to be: " throw in a bit of this and chuck in a bit of that, add garden/pool/tap/toilet water and 'Hey-presto' I have this beautiful clean wash ...

~x( like WhiskyTangoFoxtrot!!!!

I can't even get it to ferment out. Anyhoo, eggs didn't work out for me in this wash (only wash I tried them) - wrong Qty (for 60L FV of ~ 45-50L Kale wash) or its just me (which is entirely possible!).

Solubility of calcium carbonate is 15 mg per litre at 25 degrees Celsius. 1 gram per litre is not possible...

so for my example above, I'd need 0.75g which equates to approx. 7 egg shells (according to Fun Trivia)... am I overthinking this?!?! ~x(

Reasonably sober now. Did a few calculations and to fully neutralize the acid H+ in 25 liters of 3.2 pH wash you need to dissolve about 1.26 kg of caco3. This just neutralizes what acid is there and not any more that may be still being produced if the wash takes off again so you would probably want around 1.5 kg to be in excess. This is only a roughy simple calc as i didnt take into account further carbonic acid production from the co2 produced by the reaction itself.
Cheers.
Warra

[Amberale]

a long ferment will mean more carbonic acid (from the co2 being released) with the subsequent affect on the pH.
If you are wanting a long ferment (which in my experience a kale wash does produce) you need a good pH buffer to start with and start close to neutral.
Consider some gypsum.
The alternative is a faster fermenting wash

I’m also loving your FFV.
The recipe says to adjust the PH to around 5 with citric acid.
I find that this then drops to 3.5ish after 24 hours.
This still ferments out so I haven’t experimented with starting higher, should I?
Thanks

[Teddysad]

[
This still ferments out so I haven’t experimented with starting higher, should I?
Thanks

Thanks for Kudos
I am in recent versions omitting the citric acid and find it finishes nicely at around 4.5

I am also trialling a variation on which I shall report in a couple of weeks