Food for thought...

[Frothwizard]

Hi Guys,

After the "STILL FIRE" thread and doing a bit of thinking I've decided to put my thoughts to the community to see if I'm short sighted, dense or might have a point.

First up, I am NOT starting a debate here and don't want to ignite a plastics vs glass OR a electric vs gas argument. I merely want to voice a thought process and get your thoughts on it, not start a war.

We know that what we do, we do as safely as possible, within our knowledge scope anyway. We mitigate as many risks as we possibly can to stop bad things happening while we do what we do.

Everyone on this site knows the stance on plastics vs glass. We know that even a little bit of plastic in your alcohol can cause issues. Guaranteed that the first person to die or get really sick from some kind of plastic poisoning, would instigate a community wide uproar / media circus on the dangers of plastic and alcohol. We do this already because we want to be safe and we want to live forever.

Why is this same school of thought not applied to electric vs gas?

How many people over the years have been killed or almost killed due to still fires caused by heating the still with gas instead of electric?

I'm not saying that electricity is 100% safe and that it's the be all and end all of stilling, but in situations where you have an external leak which probably happens a lot more than we admit, even if it's 1 in 1000 runs, surely covering your arse by not having an open flame nearby is the way to go.

Why is the same logic of "There's a possibility that this can go wrong and I could die..." not applied to this particular topic?

I'm sure there are reasons involving cost (setting up your distilling area with power) or you only distill with your parrot facing north on the full moon on the south slope of Kilimanjaro...but there would have to be a damn good reason considering the potential life saving benefits yeah?

I repeat, I don't want to start a flame war or have people having a shot at each other regarding their setups. I just want a rational, logical discussion on whether I'VE missed something here.

I'm just trying to understand and I want you boys to help me out.

Cheers,
FW

[Brendan]

Frothy, I can't speak for the community (well I choose not to on this occassion ;-) ), but I am with you 100%.

As far as i'm concerned, gas fired stills go in the same basket for me as plastic storage containers, turbo yeasts, and licking the toilet bowl...they're just things that I wont do :snooty:

Stuff it mate, get the argument started and flame on :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[bt1]

I'm a gas runner up front,

I see the risks associated with gas as things I can mitigate without additional technical skillset. i.e. I check hose every run, I check fittings each run, I routinely service burners, have CO2 extinguishers, fire blankets, water etc etc.

I can't perform the same processes with electric.. I've a multimeter but if you asked me to detect a fault I'm out of luck. Accept a there's a lower risk associated with power but I simply don't have the skills same as most non sparky's.

In terms of risk mitigation one can be manage one can not.

Personally I know of no one who has been in a gas fire thankfully, but I do know plenty of folk who've had severe even life threatening shocks. Just for min consider someone with a pacemaker...it's all over at 240V.

bt1

[MtnMoonshiner]

I in no way take offense to your opinion, so don't get me wrong. After what happened today, I'm considering making the switch to electric. However, as stated above, I also have very limited knowledge of it.

I've always cooked on an open flame, I find it much easier to control my temperature (based on making food on an electric range), and I also find it much easier to control the other variables. Hoses, valves etc... Aside from today, which could have been easily avoided had I not gotten careless. Yes, gas does present it's own brand of dangers. But so does anything else. With this, and with most dangerous things, the risk can be mitigated to a degree with proper precautions. Electricity even provides it's own deadly dangers when proper precautions aren't taken.

There is a possibility that I could be hit by a car while crossing the street. I look both both ways. There is a possibility that another leak might cause another fire. From now on, I'll check for leaks more carefully, and I'll shut the flame off if I find one that paste won't cover. Little would be accomplished anywhere in life if we were all so risk averse.

Have you ever distilled with gas as oppose to electric?

[Andy]

I nearly got fried with my keg king electric element- electric still has risks

[Brendan]

I nearly got fried with my keg king electric element- electric still has risks

Keg King elements have more risk :scared-eek:

That's equivalent to running a gas hose with a hole in it...

[Muppet]

I've set up all my gear on electric. Personal preference because of many reasons. Safety being one. Coming from a overly risk conscious construction/ gas background there are ways to mitigate the major hazards. Remember men weld in live gas plants daily and with little risk. There will always be a chance of something going wrong. It's how you control your situation to give you the best chance should something fail. I personally think a professionally set up electric system is the safer option but each to their own.

[Frothwizard]

All you boys running on gas, I definitely understand your point of view.

BT1 - You're right, a pacemaker and a shock will definitely get you.

MtMoonshiner - I agree you can probably control temperature better...I don't have a controller myself but some of the other lads might disagree. Not for me to say.

With regards to the SPECIFIC idea of alcohol leaking / getting knocked over while stilling (Which I've done before and boy was I glad I didn't have gas that day.), do you just accept is as an acceptable risk and move on? Like living dangerously?

I know I'm a clumsy dude at times or just a bit over eager, that's why when I first got my keg / copper pot, I left it sitting in the basement for 3 weeks till the elements from Mac arrived. There was no way I was going to chance it because I knew that

1. If I'd got gas setup, I would be too lazy to install the elements and
2. At some point I'd not tighten a clamp or I'd stretch a seal or something would go wrong (and it has) and I'd get myself in trouble with not only myself but my Mrs.

It's actually her biggest fear, when I'm stilling she always asks me "The shed's not gonna blow up today is it?". To which I assuage her fears by telling her there are no open flames to catch fire in the shed.

[kiwikeg]

http://youtu.be/T0Zt3u8pqhU
I prefer gas, preferably a Homebuilt BD747 on a HP regulator

[baysidebogan]

We can and do take all the precautions we can, but lets face it, shit happens. I really do not think there is a definite answer to this. When I was still at school (some time last century) one of my mates father used to cook poitin in a still that sat above open flames in an old backyard incinerator, never had any problems. I use electricity cos the house is all electric,easy to use my small stovetop pot still as well as my keg inside without the neighbours seeing. Actually cooking outside on gas at the moment would be dangerous,not because of any vapor leaks, but because of the fucking toxic smoke and ash from the fires in the local coal mine

[Sam.]

Wow this thread is amazingly still going pro gas.......might get on while it's going my way :D

Anything is as dangerous as you make it and how well you know it. Driving down a dirt road you have never been on before at 180 will probably end in disaster, as opposed to driving a well taking road at 60 ;-)

Running electric, how many people have continually overloaded circuits on poorly wire houses? Wouldn't it be nice to burn your house to the ground because you didn't realize how much current you are drawing through shitty wire?

Also at least with a gas still your WILL know when you have a massive leak as it will catch fire. What happens when there is no ignition source near? If there isn't adequate ventilation it will continue to build until it finds an ignition source and hopefully it's not in it's perfect explosive limit range otherwise there will be an explosion instead of merely a fire.

I could keep going about poor quality (ah hem keg king) elements and what if they made your whole still live? etc etc.

There is a reason why we encourage people to check their rigs, not leave them unattended during a run, not get shit faced while running etc etc, because if something does go wrong you want to be able to control it before it gets out of control.

At the end of the day everyone makes their own decisions and decides what level of risk they want to take.

For some an electric set up is beyond what they can afford, just about everyone already has a gas bottle for a BBQ and you can get a small gas burner very cheap. Some still on an open fire but I bet they can run faster than me :D

This has been brought up many times before and it is one of those things that can be debated until the cows come home. At the end of the day the quality of hooch will be same gas v electric, just depends which one you want to run and which risks you want to accept :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Man thats a lot of typing, where is that scotch......

[Yummyrum]

For me ,I woyld love all electric but I can't afford it ATM as I'm sure is the case for many others.

I do all my stripping runs out side on gas with a potstill with an output around 6 feet from the flames.My collection vessel is in a plastic bowl which can hold around 10 liters in case of spillage or pukes which could flow back across the floor to the burner.
I always have the garden hose primed and ready......I fuckin hate gas but it gets the job done quick.

For spirit runs I ue an electric boiler ....only 1400 watts but fine for a Rum spirit or VM nuetral run .

Electricity can be safe...so why can't we get our electric "Crab boilers " tag tested ?...no excuse if we want it to be safe


Edit.Posted same time Sam . :text-+1:

[whiskeyshiner]

Pretty sure some guy on HD blew up his boka up just by running flat out with only a tiny hole somehow that caught fire without a naked flame I run a three ring burner with hp reg but im going electric so I can atleast chuck a shit during a run I mean I never leave my gas untended though

[crow]

First up any one starting a discussion with "not starting an argument" and then expressing a polar view point is always starting an argument. That said this is a gas verses electricity debate with the opening post being heavily slanted against gas. Fine that is your choice as it is the choice of many others, trying to compare it to the glass v plastic is a presumptuous stretch that shows a clear lack of eventual or anecdotal evidence to back your augment up. Nothing wrong with electrical heating bud with the right precautions just as there in no hass with gas, fire or steam. They all have an inherent risk to be managed. your agument might be "but wait up say your still is faulty and pissing out ethanol vapor and your naked flame may ignite it in a confined space , ok fine lets say you got electrical heating :handgestures-thumbupleft: beut champ so now you got your shed full of vapor, christ I hope you don't smoke and nothing sparks. Yes if you are not safety conscious chances are you will increase your risk just as you will with any endeavor. Tell ya what you tell me the stats on how many ppl were killed last yr with gas explosions and I'll do my up most to get you the stats on folks killed by electrocution. We try to provide the best advise on the safe use of a variety of systems here, all have different risks (its called life) and all have pro's and con's :-B

[Frothwizard]

First up any one starting a discussion with "not starting an argument" and then expressing a polar view point is always starting an argument. That said this is a gas verses electricity debate with the opening post being heavily slanted against gas. Fine that is your choice as it is the choice of many others, trying to compare it to the glass v plastic is a presumptuous stretch that shows a clear lack of eventual or anecdotal evidence to back your augment up. Nothing wrong with electrical heating bud with the right precautions just as there in no hass with gas, fire or steam. They all have an inherent risk to be managed. your agument might be "but wait up say your still is faulty and pissing out ethanol vapor and your naked flame may ignite it in a confined space , ok fine lets say you got electrical heating :handgestures-thumbupleft: beut champ so now you got your shed full of vapor, christ I hope you don't smoke and nothing sparks. Yes if you are not safety conscious chances are you will increase your risk just as you will with any endeavor. Tell ya what you tell me the stats on how many ppl were killed last yr with gas explosions and I'll do my up most to get you the stats on folks killed by electrocution. We try to provide the best advise on the safe use of a variety of systems here, all have different risks (its called life) and all have pro's and con's :-B

I think you misunderstood my initial post. I didn't want people to start arguing with each other, that is to say, I wanted everyone to be respectful of other peoples opinions and thus far, they have, I wouldn't say anyone has 'argued' as yet. I also stated that I wanted a logical rational discussion in case I'VE missed something...in your opinion, you clearly think I have...and that's cool.

As stated, my intent was to garnish knowledge from other people on why they do what they do with THIS particular scenario (Still leak / spilt parrot) and I merely used the plastic vs glass as a baseline for safety. Of course the two aren't comparable because ANYONE using plastic is endangering themselves...that's 100% failure rate...whereas the gas may only be problematic for 1 in a million for all I know, as you said, I don't have hard facts to back that up.

I think there's a resounding opinion that you take as much care of yourself as you would like to and anything past that, you are willing to accept the risks. That's cool and you've definitely got more balls than me for the reasons I've stated previously.

[Woodsy71]

This kinda reminds me of the Fords versus Holdens debate :ugeek:

[Frothwizard]

This kinda reminds me of the Fords versus Holdens debate :ugeek:

I thought Ford won when Holden got shoved outta town :P

[Woodsy71]

This kinda reminds me of the Fords versus Holdens debate :ugeek:

I thought Ford won when Holden got shoved outta town :P

Now thats debatable :D

[Frothwizard]

This kinda reminds me of the Fords versus Holdens debate :ugeek:

I thought Ford won when Holden got shoved outta town :P

Now thats debatable :D

Sounds like a job for the Dunder Pit! Tag you're it!

[Brendan]

Argument or debate, I still think it's healthy.

Everyone's got their ways and their reasons, and we learn from hearing them.

Good discussion guys :smile:

And for the record, I'd have a steam jacketed boiler if I could!