how to pull flavore from fruits or i wish i knew

[Mr.Roughnutz]

so far iv dum mullberry, plum, and have a mandarin and grapa on fermeters.
the internet ses that the best u can get from a fruit if a "caricter" not strong rich flavore and this makes sence sort of but WHY.
my thorts are as follows.
1
dog shit flavorless fruit.
2
diluted flavor by adition of sugar and or exsesive water.
3
volatility of the chems makeing the spesific flavor.
4
solubility of the chems in water vs ethanol or eny of the other alcoholes.
5
the flavors being striped by the distalation equipment.

1 seams a pritty eazy fix

2 seems tricky more sugar is more solvent UNLESS what were looking for is water soluble vs ethanol.

3 im still thinking but the flavor of a fruit gets stonger with age to a point, jared fruit, preserves and jams do not loose flavore over time.
so im still pondering on this. do we need an aspect of eather sugar or fiber to stabilise perhaps.


4 and 5 go together realy i gess. pot vs column yada yada yada go cluck duck bla bla. what is, is BUT.
pot stills pull more WATER that column stills .... but if ur off take abv is the the same then oh wait what. so i am building a pot a colum a maze a plate and if i can be fucked a bubbler to IF (please note the if here) we run off all product down to nill then all the above should hav all the flavor in the mash just in difrent fractions.

im young and dum please feel free to point out what i dont know that what i do know i dont.

[TheRealMrMessy]

Sad, isn't it? Before the end of the year I'll be trying again to make some brandy.

Yeast makes quite the difference in terms of esterification and the resulting flavours. I've no "which is best" pointers beyond trying a cider or wine yeast intended for enhancing fruity flavours. My usual go-to in this space is EC1118 (more of a wine yeast), whichever sounds like the right ester profile in the Safcider range, or even an M02. The other thought I'm going to progress with is to cheat a little if necessary, thinking along the lines of macerating but then you are up against flavour stability and shelf life etc. Not sure how a hundred or so ppm of preservative would help retain that (i.e. sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate), but I want to experiment and find out.

Re #1: Yeah, quality control is hard. Lots of fruit flavour comes with the skin (being cautious of pith etc.), and I'm wondering how far I could push into that (vs cost and effort), using the rest to make some kind of sauce etc. so I'm not wasting anything.

#2: Perhaps try concentrating your juices by lightly simmering off half the liquid? Means you'll need twice as much to start with though.

#3: Pretty much my commentary above.

#4: Essential oils, particularly in citrus, sometimes are soluble in high proof. I watch a very well made and criminally undersubscribed youtube channel called Art of Drink, and recommend you check out this video which might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSL6pVr ... ArtofDrink

#5: I'm not sold on the right method, but I'd anticipate pot still probably the way to go here. Reflux with a couple bubble plates would also allow tighter cuts and better blending for flavour later though. :think:

[Mr.Roughnutz]

thank you for the YT recomendation.

agree on all points you mentioned.
ec1118 its recomnded every were but i just dont like it tho. i did a bunch of meads in 1 galon jugs for a year be i got visted bybthe liquor fairy i did my first two with ec1118 and just got a realy dry our tast with an od od funk i thort i had got bacteria the first time
i tryed bred yeast kv "wine yeast" and settled on mangrove jacks mo5 mead yeast giving me best results over all for temp tolarence and flavor profile. yeast is such a big factore i havent distiled on enything eals so far other than 4gens of mashing in on top of the left over yeast sluty at the bottom of the fermenter. i will try ec again with apples and i have corn mash down on angel yellow atm will c how that goes in a few weeks when i get a pot head sorted.
doing concentrated fruits is sumthing i will try but is realy just avoiding the problem realy the goal is to get ALL the flavorse out i think rather than just uping the kg per bottle of spirit. So saying tho hier is BETTER on that score. i did sum mullberry and pulled basicly NO flavore threw but i froze off a kilo of the mulbery mash just b4 ipitched yeast then coffy filterd the shit outa it and put it back into the harts that work okish grate color little litte bitbof flavor and was stable for the few mounths it larsted. im looking at geting a block of scott labs oKay yeast if enyone has used that stuff inwould love your feed back b4 i drop the coin.

[TheRealMrMessy]

Just on the EC1118 and mead, I made 6 x 5L demis of mead a couple years ago using it and they all turned out amazing (apple cinnamon, blueberry, some traditional dry - all three using 2 different honeys (never, ever use gum honey (e.g. redgum!)). I wanted to this year but have postponed to next year, (too busy making a whole bunch of rum - up to generation 6 now!) but I wanna try doing a 60L batch of boring ole plain mead that I'll distill, then use the result to fortify fermented meads instead of using preservatives to halt the fermentation. I might still use a little potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate to retain flavours though.

Don't write EC1118 off since you had a bad run with mead - mead has a lot more that can go wrong generally than a wash you plan to distill.

[The Stig]

EC1118 is the ideal yeast for fruits , yes it takes longer but this is a hobby of hurry up and wait

[Mr.Roughnutz]

i have not used ec1118 in a still yet so on ur recomendaition i will do a run with it. what temps and gravity do you run EC1118? i run honey honey apple and honey cherry all over 1100 1120
i had a mate come parst on the weekend with a good nonsmokers palet and we tasted the full length of my shelf and very intrestingly he was picking up stonger botanical notes from my brandys than frutiness. Even in my 3rd gen (roled oats corkflake and molasses) rum there is significant botanicle airy flavore. i can only atribute this to the mangrove jacks.

ps that YT channle is gold mate juat the type of technicle info i am chasen

[TheRealMrMessy]

Oh yeah, Art of Drink - Darcy - does a damn good job of presenting all that stuff hey? Nothing on distillation, but so much good info on flavour profiles, mixes, esters, etc. on a soft drink etc front. I'm learning how to make my essences etc but right now trying to master a zero sugar essence base in a semi-affordable way (that doesn't induce diarrhoea :handgestures-thumbdown: ).

That's some high gravity numbers you are trying to push with any yeast really. They might take the sugars and make them alcohol, but they are starting to get stressed out a bit, the ester profiles start to vary away from what you are seeking etc. Little wonder the results aren't being favourable if that's your standard starting gravities. Recommend you aim around 1080; or give-or-take a 10% ABV result in a wash.

EC1118, the general ranges can vary - again depending on the ester profile you are after - but for fruity esters I aim around 15/16c. As Stig said it'll be slower at this temperature, where you might give a wash at 24c 2 weeks, you want 3, maybe even 4 weeks by the time its done and flocculates out (without being able to cold crash). If you are trying to push 1100-1120 on the gravity, even longer again. Patience is a definite virtue at those levels, and again I recommend you pull back a bit on the fermentables.

[RuddyCrazy]

I've made a heap of Brandies to take of the bucket list and everytime I use EC1118 yeast :handgestures-thumbupleft: always make a yeast starter using some of the wash and by giving the wash a good mixing with my homemade stirrer ensured plenty of oxygen gets in the wash for the yeast to eat.

I generally find around the 1020 to 1030 mark the PH has really dropped so using a bit of baking soda to bring the wash upto 4.5 PH does ensure the wash will finish nicely. As far as time goes well it is part of the craft and when it's done it's done. Now to check if a wash is finished 3 PH readings taken over 3 days if the PH has stayed the same it's a great guide to the wash being finished. Now the PH IS 1020 and stopped well blame a PH crash and getting it back to 4.5 PH should work.

Cheers Bryan

[Mr.Roughnutz]

i did get sum prity amayzing meads at those gravitys just not with ec118 and not at those temps. i found outright temp to not be so important as stability. to a point i dint worry if im 20 or 25 eather is fine as long as in stays stable bounceing temps is a mojor NO NO for me for my meads i put them in the footwell of my project car under a car cove in the back of my shed the temp is rock solid.
i did a strate rasberry concentrate mead at 1150 or 40 mangrove jack m05 left it half of summer winter and half way into summer again i racked it off go 4 ltrs was a smash hit at my missess serbian orthadox christmass. i found ec1118 way to fussy on temp
so saying i hav not run it under 1100. 2 gallon jugs side by side mangrove and ec strate hony my ec will come dry almost to chalkyness be flat nutrale tasting and mostbof the time its not so much sour but sour adjacent as the mangrave will hit not so much sweeter but fuller more defined notes this is just me i dont even hav a clue other than internet BS

[Mr.Roughnutz]

i did get a ph tester just this xmass same thing happen tonthe mandarin wash iv got going atm i put 10ltrs wash and 2kg suger to dilut then added baking soda till it came back. put a colender full of mandarin peel into a pot with 10%abv and steamed then aded the liquid to the mashed fruit. the liquid was lovely to tast no bitter or soure just strong strong mandarin but with the wash now its the most horrible thing iv ever made im thinking theres to must esential oil pulled out into the wash i dont know

[TheRealMrMessy]

Temperature stability is beneficial to all fermentation, but the actual temperature absolutely matters in terms of the esters produced. If you are fluctuating all over the place, so will the esters. Finding and maintaining the correct temperature is the main trick. EC1118 is fussy about precision, but it's your best bet for producing the flavours you are after too.

I finally gave up on doing solid temperature control without them, and invested about 600 bucks in two used all-fridges, 2 heat mats, and 2 temperature controllers. Game changer. Uses bugger all power to maintain temps in the 10-25c range, even up here in FNQ. Right now I've got one fridge crashing 60L down for a pot still strip run this weekend (okay, that part uses a bit more power!), and the other holding 35c for a Voss Kveik yeast ginger beer brew - that brew benefits from running !!HOT!! Same fridge and fermenter, I'd just finished a mexican cerveza fermented at 14c that's now lagering in my keg fridge. Just adds some awesome versatility. I realise not everyone can do all this in terms of financials and space, but if you want to be serious about controlling the temp for yummy fruity goodness, you might need to check out facebook marketplace for a cheapo would-be fermenter fridge. Doesn't work out in the long run, you've always got a good drinks fridge!

Hopefully monitoring/adjusting pH will help. Rather than bicarb get yourself some calcium carbonate and use it sparingly. Bicarb has more effect on your flavour profile and may be the cause of your chalkiness. Calcium carbonate - funnily enough literally what chalk is made of - has less pronounced effects on flavour. Absolutely it still can though. When you say you are adjusting pH though, is this to push more fermentation out because the wash has become to acidic? I'll say again that you are better off reducing your fermentable content and avoiding this altogether - then you aren't adding stuff that'll affect flavour when flavour is what you are chasing.

On the mandarin flavour turning weird, did you remove all the pith? That'd bitter things up if not, especially when the sweetness decreases through fermentation. If you reckon its some oils throwing off the flavour, try throwing some of the mix in the freezer (or fridge if the whole thing wants to freeze) and then running it through a coffee filter. That might help solidify the oils and capture them.

[RuddyCrazy]

Well the worst kept secret with fruit is just dice it up then chuck it in the freezer which will bring out all the fermentable sugars :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Now I have been doing fruit wash's for over a decade and haven't bothered to use fridges for temp control, my fermenters sit behind my shed fire and on a cold day the old railway box they are sitting on gets nice and warm which keeps the ferments happy, oh and a 5 star heat belt goes on each fermenter too as in the winter months it does the job of heat control.

[TheRealMrMessy]

Was an SA boy for many years haha (Mount Compass and Lameroo), no doubt its easier to heat when needed (still plenty of memories of 50c summer days where I lived though...).

Freezing, cooking, both, other way around, etc... depends on the fruit :handgestures-thumbupleft: no expert on brandy but used plenty of fruits as adjuncts to other stuff!

[Mr.Roughnutz]

yeah legit temp comtrole is on my list projects.
im more thinking along the lines of wort chillers with a stainless 44 in the ground for summer and a small wasit oil boiler for winter. im very much inclined to mechanicle solutions than electricle. but i hav eye off acouple of thoas brew fridge setuo there prity pimp

[Mr.Roughnutz]

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i carnt chose a temp but the wash haz stayed within a pooftinth

this is a little scetchy would not recomend to others.

i use a finely adjusted holes drild in a coke can to ventury air over the heating coils so things stay safe(enuf).

[TheRealMrMessy]

Hey if it works, more power to you bloke.
:text-+1:

[Mr.Roughnutz]

AMEN

[Wellsy]

If you wrap the cherry barrell in a blanket you will be amazed at the difference it makes.

A couple of standard heat belts and a blanket on a temp controller works well simply because of the thermal mass of 200 litres

[Mr.Roughnutz]

20250705_185436.jpg

Tryn a heat hood around my kettel insted of waterbath on water it running well hav 4" of glass beads in the bottom witch are bouncen aroud better than i thort its got 40ltrs of water to vaper in 45min with a wisper of a flame. will post more data as it comes in

[Mr.Roughnutz]

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very very happy brww bag spit open so i had way more pulp than i wanted NO SCORTCH run nice n hard got clear cuts gross liqour but it was a mager shit shit mash i wrote off enyway pulled 11lrts down to 20% used not even one gas bottle run "harts" at 2lt/hr beasty set up pulled a lot of diffrent flavores had used a yeas that was spoes to be good at acid reduction total fail will still got a yeasty horror show at 84% will be re run with a load of faints