High PH TP wash Experiment.

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High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Tue May 05, 2015 11:17 pm

As the title suggests experimental... :angry-banghead:

As curiosity has got me i decided to give it a shot raise the ph it a standard TP wash just to see what happens..


Water PH 7.2 being from concrete tank.
20L
I gave it 3 Kg sugar half a bottle lemon juice and the tub of tomato paste.

Going with a fish tank PH test kit which going below 6 and above 7.5 is a bit of a guess... this tested at 5 ish give ot take...

I added

At least 1Kg Crushed Limestone

raised the PH to 6.5

Added a bit of ash from the fireplace. (Local hardwood) Not sure what its going to do but the PH went to over 7.5 closer to 8.

Cast the yeast on Sat night fish tank heater set at 25 Deg.

Got a chance last night to check it a bit.. Smell is stronger than a TP.(No visible sign of infection yet.) the SG was 1010 yeast appears strong. PH was back to 5.

Tonight below 1000 looks like its going to finish soon 990 appears to well in its grasp.

I never expected the yeast to even fire up even thought it would be slower.

From reading the HD forums blue distalate. some say unspent nutrients some say high PH... Found one guy had it with a Turbo wash. makes me ask is it just bad luck or miss adventure. :))

either way will rack it run it when i get a chance to. 8-}

Question is should it get split to raise the PH again with half of it... if so with what ruling out caustic soda/baking soda.(being half of it Sodium Carbonate which is a substitute for caustic soda.)

not sure whats going to happen but finding out is what its about being hobbie and all. :naughty:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby 1 2many » Wed May 06, 2015 7:26 pm

At least 1Kg Crushed Limestone
:wtf:

But why are you doing this. :think:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Wed May 06, 2015 7:52 pm

Well it appears finished smell normal.

SG reading.jpg


PH tested..

PH test.jpg


Looks ok to me now to let it clear for a few days. :D

being a once off its hear say with the PH but when it started that yellow stuff was Dark blue with that PH test kit..

___________________________________________---

12 my answer is why not.. i guess its for me.

This may rule out straight PH as the reason for blue distillate. Or it may not. I'm only guessing but think it requires a little more.

If you want delete the thread thats fine too.. ^:)^
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Andy » Wed May 06, 2015 8:08 pm

well just so you know if you achieve a blue distillate its because alkaline washes will release more ammonia and destroy ur copper reflux coil
sooo.... good luck with the experiment...
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby 1 2many » Wed May 06, 2015 8:08 pm

bent stick wrote:12 my answer is why not.. i guess its for me.

This may rule out straight PH as the reason for blue distillate. Or it may not. I'm only guessing but think it requires a little more.


All good mate, my bad didn't read post properly :angry-banghead:

Let us know how it goes. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Sam. » Wed May 06, 2015 8:57 pm

I doubt doing one run is going to destroy the copper. Will want a good clean straight after though I would think.

I'm interested to see the results, I'm a big fan of hard facts :-B
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Wed May 06, 2015 11:20 pm

Andy wrote:well just so you know if you achieve a blue distillate its because alkaline washes will release more ammonia and destroy ur copper reflux coil
sooo.... good luck with the experiment...



Cool. Should be fluro if it does.

I'm hoping it stays clear... Bicarb id say guaranteed.. (Guess only but it will react to any acidic liquid even milk will foam.)

Also if this is the case... DAP is 18% urea.... and lots of ammonia in it as well.. :))

1 2many wrote:Let us know how it goes.



Will do be on the weekend if all goes well..

Sam. wrote:I'm interested to see the results, I'm a big fan of hard facts



So am i.

As for the copper... the layer wont be missed for a once off... the coil is replaceable.

Gota go back on the weekend with the next step.. :teasing-blah:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Fri May 08, 2015 10:58 pm

Well its either good news or bad news here depending on how you look at this...

Gave it a good clean out with citric acid and well flushed last night just for this run.


First jar is on the right, full reflux for 15 Min first drop at 36 deg for the reflux water. Second last jar it was holding 63 deg.

Pano_jars.jpg


Turned the coolant to a dribble to see what temp it was cooling it shot up to 93 deg. :D

For the last one here.

turned it off completely and no change in color.

Looks like water to me... :crying-blue:

Is it not enough copper in this still or the wrong stuff?

Its got a good double handful copper saddles/ SS scrubbers/copper drain tube..

even citric acid gets a blue color when cleaning it.

Should this be done with bicarb and the same method?

Being a mix of sodium carbonate and Co2 the result should be different.
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Sam. » Fri May 08, 2015 11:32 pm

I am still going with you need to crank the PH high (above 7) before distilling to get the blue :-B

What was the final PH when you ran it?
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Sat May 09, 2015 8:15 am

PH was as it finished (guess about 5) should have split it. :angry-banghead:


Ok have to redo it....

Going shopping will get some Lime another fish tank heater...

A raid on the cupboards should get enough baking soda to do another... both starting at a PH of 7-8

Will split them this time into 10L batches. to take one of each over 7 for running.

Has anyone who had Blue had a high PH at the time of running?


Another one to do would be Add DAP or MAP instead of the lemon juice if this doesn't work. then it would be a combination tho... but hopefully not necessary.


MAP is easy enough to get.

:mrgreen:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Sat May 16, 2015 12:08 am

Well redid it started on Sun.

Standard TPW 4 Kg sugar.
Added 100g of lime to get it to a PH of 7.5-8 or so.
Added yeast it didn't fire up just sank to the bottom. (This i thought should have happened with limestone being calcified into rock must be the difference.)

Thought if i dropped the PH the yeast would start..... took it back to 7 no go out of lemon juice.

Had a bad thought DAP/MAP. off i went to get some.(wanted to avoid this option....) :angry-banghead:

Put a good bent handful in... (Should have been too much)

Started almost straight away. (Sun night)

what we have is too high a PH and high nutrients(Ammonia) at the start should be everything to give blue.... or is it.

Thursday morning it finished bloody aggressive ferment 3.5 days to hit 990-995.( I thought a TPW and lowan yeast wouldn't do this.)

Racked it ran 8L of it tonight the still ran hotter can see why sometimes a pot is better..

The result... Its still clear. :))

We have roughly halve or a little better to force the PH up this wash finished up with a PH of 5 ish again.
Which would only simulate a wash that couldn't finish.


Yeast are tough little buggers. ^:)^
they found a way to finish here. ;-)
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Teddysad » Sat May 16, 2015 8:39 am

Limestone ( Calcium Carbonate) is not readily soluble in water.

However for a better pH adjustment try Hydrated lime - Calcium hydroxide ( aka Builders lime or pickling lime )

However I am, like others, not exactly sure why you are doing this.
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Sam. » Sat May 16, 2015 9:04 am

He is trying to replicate blue distillate to pinpoint what actually causes it.

After these tests it seems it's quite hard to obtain :-B
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Teddysad » Sat May 16, 2015 9:16 am

OK I see
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Sun May 17, 2015 10:18 am

Teddysad wrote:However for a better pH adjustment try Hydrated lime - Calcium hydroxide ( aka Builders lime or pickling lime )


Correct as the second experiment went. It blocks certain nutrient/minerals from the yeast at a PH of 7 or above. Hence why the DAP got it going.

Sam. wrote:After these tests it seems it's quite hard to obtain :-B


Its not an act of god like weather... Like why some areas are dry some get floods.

There will be a reason. So far the one relating high PH causing unspent nutrients/ammonia appear here to be shot allowing the yeast to do its job..

Short of adding bicarb or lyre after the yeast.... which should guarantee it.

Assuming the still is clean. it shouldn't happen.

Mods permitting the next can be Bicarb to a PH of 7 or above to see if the Sodium Carbonate half gets consumed by the yeast enough. the Co2 will be long gone.

So far the adjustment has been over ridden by the yeast.

Im hoping to have a list of whats relatively safe in reason.... Do's and don'ts.
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:23 pm

Bent stick wrote:Mods permitting the next can be Bicarb to a PH of 7 or above to see if the Sodium Carbonate half gets consumed by the yeast enough. the Co2 will be long gone


Ok.. Done.

This time i did the TP with 2 Kg sugar Bloody good handfull DAP.

Added Baking soda to it till the PH was 7.5 i thought it was enough. You could see the Co2 come out of the fermenter it was a grey haze on top of the wash..

While doing the PH test being chemical you need a sample a little of the wash gets on the fingers... This had the same slimy feeling you get with caustic soda with out the burn but slimy it was.

My thoughts were good copper cleaner.

Cast the yeast thinking they had to explode. never thought it had a chance being almost an alkaline acid.(fermenter temp 30 deg at the time)

No fish tank heater being winter not the optimum conditions for yeast.

Next day the glad wrap seal had a good dome yeast going strong.

Took a week to finish back to 990.

I havn't had a chance to run it till tonight it sat for a week settling.

PH finished at 5 ish the slimy feel still there.

Put 15 Litres in the still. have another 5-8L untouched.

First drops clear stayed clear the whole run.

Same as before i got blue haze with citric acid while cleaning the t500 for the run.

will check the cuts out tomorrow sometime.

P.s. it had a unique smell while fermenting. that smell seemed to come out a bit during running but there was no blue can post pics tomorrow the connection issnt good enough tonight.

Still havn't got a guaranteed method of blue distillate from high PH so far without forcing the PH up just before running it. :angry-banghead:

Is this good or bad news?
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Irritable » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:25 am

I can't recall how or why - but the instructional paper that accompanied my super reflux had a trouble shooting guide and within that it specified what to do if/when you obtained blue distillate. Reverse engineering would replicate.
Ill dig it out when I get home.
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:25 pm

Exsitable wrote:instructional paper that accompanied my super reflux had a trouble shooting guide and within that it specified what to do if/when you obtained blue distillate

:laughing-rolling: Let me guess..... it needs cleaning. :violin: i hope the cuts are an improvement on the T500..

Every where i go there is a link with high PH/unspent nutrients/Blue Distillate. acka Blue stone or copper sulphate. hell there is even a thread here for green distillate with no exact cause here.

If its simply PH the common denominator then i should have struck it by now. 3 diffrent substances one stopped the yeast.

Sam. wrote:I am still going with you need to crank the PH high (above 7) before distilling to get the blue :-B


Sam i have 5-8 L left its sitting at a PH of 5ish It wouldnt take that much baking soda to take it back over 7...

It would raise the sodium carbonate levels getting it closer to sodium hydroxide.(being a substitute)

read good and bad stuff from adding baking soda to the wash before and after running.

If that doesn't do it nothing should.

___________________

On a side note while doing this i've have a rice job on the go been stalled for a week stuck on 1030.... From what ive done here i altered the PH to neutralish... Its an instant fix the yeast fired up straight away.

the waiting game continues. :text-lol:
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:05 am

Bent stick wrote:It wouldnt take that much baking soda to take it back over 7...


Actually this is probably not worth it. Had a look at the jars during the week. definitely clear. They smell right.... What should have been hearts had a taste of a drop..

The Bicarb altered the taste. definitely not for me.. :puke-huge:


enough for me.
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Re: High PH TP wash Experiment.

Postby Bent stick » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:42 pm

Bent stick wrote: it needs cleaning. :violin:


Maybe off topic maybe not.

I wonder how many get Blue/Green/yellow from a Brand new still?

Just finished building a 3" shotgun the core is silver soldered then slipped into its sleeve and soft soldered rough job but i think it may work.

Interesting thing is what it looks like after 1 hour after rinsing it off i thought it was clean.

Top.

Screenshots_2015-06-14-18-02-35.png


Bottom.



Screenshots_2015-06-14-18-03-04.png



Flux was bakers looks like it hung around..



Time for an alkaline bath for this one.. :D


This would be enough to give this effect.
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