Teddy's Fast Fermenting Vodka (FFV) Discussion

[GBarb]

Anyone use SC with FFV on the spirit run?

I don’t want to strip any flavour from the end product, and wondering if it is going to make much of a difference.

I certainly wouldn’t use on a whiskey or bourbon, so just wondering if adding the SC to FFV would strip that slight wheat flavour we are aiming for.

[EziTasting]

Anyone use SC with FFV on the spirit run?

I don’t want to strip any flavour from the end product, and wondering if it is going to make much of a difference.

I certainly wouldn’t use on a whiskey or bourbon, so just wondering if adding the SC to FFV would strip that slight wheat flavour we are aiming for.

Not sure what you mean by SC, but this isn’t meant as a flavoured recipe; it’s called Teddy’s Fast Fermenting Vodka. Vodka is as flavourless as possible... so those of us making this are stripping the flavour on purpose...

[Bundaboy]

Not sure what you mean by SC, but this isn’t meant as a flavoured recipe; it’s called Teddy’s Fast Fermenting Vodka. Vodka is as flavourless as possible... so those of us making this are stripping the flavour on purpose...

I have to slightly disagree with that in that I switched from TPW to FFV mostly because of flavour (TPW tastes somewhat sweet to me, FFV much drier and has a slight wheaty flavour that is, to my palate, quite nice).

Now I use a 2" Macboka, giving a 94% ABV product, so perhaps your rig produces a purer product? I would be insterested in your thoughts on that.

Having said that, it is a very subtle taste, but, although I am not a vodka drinker normally, I can drink the FFV as is and quite enjoy it, but mostly I turn it into a whisky using essences - doing that with TPW I end up with a bourbon type sweetness that is not to my taste.

@GBarb
I also don't know what SC is, can you enlighten me?

[GBarb]

Sodium carbonate, used for the spirit run to compress the heads and tails, chemically changes the eaters or something and gives a vastly better product and yield.

I have heard however that is strips flavour (never to be used in flavoured washes like bourbons etc) so not sure what is would do the FFV.

[db1979]

I just had a quick read around the subject, I've read about it before but never bothered with it.

I'm guessing you had a typo, and meant to type esters, not eaters?

From what I found, esters, water and ethanol (as well as all other higher alcohols) all form azeotropes. Many on here know what an azeotrope is, but for those that don't, an azeotrope is a mixture where all components boil and condense in the same proportions - means they can't be separated by distillation.

Methanol doesn't form an azeotrope with water but ethanol does. Which is why we can never get higher than 95.63% abv from distillation. Ethanol, water and esters also form tertiary (three component) azeotropes (plural because there are a number of different esters in our washes). These azeotropes will be part of the heads cut which is why there is so much ethanol left in heads. These azeotropes give way to the water/ethanol azeotrope once all the esters have been removed from the still.

There are a number of ways to break an ethanol/ester/water azeotrope, the only suitable way to us is to use salt to break the azeotrope. I'm not sure what breaking this type of azeotrope would achieve but because salts are far more soluble in water than ethanol (and insoluble in esters) it is most likely that salt would remove water from the azeotrope, where we would prefer the ethanol to be removed from the ester/ethanol/water azeotropes (so it can be distilled with the hearts in the ethanol/water azeotrope).

Why all this talk about salts? Sodium carbonate is a salt.

Sodium carbonate is also basic, it raises pH. Since ester formation (a reaction between an alcohol and a carboxylic acid - both of which are found in our boilers) is acid OR base catalysed, it happens much faster at pHs far removed from neutral (pH = 7). Reflux is also often required.

So by adding sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, calcium carbonate, potassium carbonate etc in theory should have a benefit to stop extra esters from forming in the reflux column (due to a more neutral pH) and help to break the ester/ethanol/water azeotrope (but by excluding water as discussed above). Managing a neutral pH may also help to cleave esters back into carboxylic acids and alcohols, but I'm not sure if we'd notice any difference.

As far as flavour goes, the esters are some of the flavour chemicals in our products (along with aldehydes and higher alcohols... and who knows what). So I guess, based on what I've already said, it is likely that sodium carbonate will remove flavour from the product of this wash. Maybe it helps in a positive way, by removing flavour components that mask nicer flavours, or maybe it encourages esters that have a positive impact on flavour to end up in the heads. Only one way to know.

Give it a go.

[db1979]

Sorry for the information overload :violence-smack:

Surely it'll help someone though :-B

[GBarb]

Explains it perfectly.

On another note, anyone used actually wheat in their recipee before instead of wheat bran

[j0sh2008]

I just had a quick read around the subject, I've read about it before but never bothered with it.

I'm guessing you had a typo, and meant to type esters, not eaters?

From what I found, esters, water and ethanol (as well as all other higher alcohols) all form azeotropes. Many on here know what an azeotrope is, but for those that don't, an azeotrope is a mixture where all components boil and condense in the same proportions - means they can't be separated by distillation.

Methanol doesn't form an azeotrope with water but ethanol does. Which is why we can never get higher than 95.63% abv from distillation. Ethanol, water and esters also form tertiary (three component) azeotropes (plural because there are a number of different esters in our washes). These azeotropes will be part of the heads cut which is why there is so much ethanol left in heads. These azeotropes give way to the water/ethanol azeotrope once all the esters have been removed from the still.

There are a number of ways to break an ethanol/ester/water azeotrope, the only suitable way to us is to use salt to break the azeotrope. I'm not sure what breaking this type of azeotrope would achieve but because salts are far more soluble in water than ethanol (and insoluble in esters) it is most likely that salt would remove water from the azeotrope, where we would prefer the ethanol to be removed from the ester/ethanol/water azeotropes (so it can be distilled with the hearts in the ethanol/water azeotrope).

Why all this talk about salts? Sodium carbonate is a salt.

Sodium carbonate is also basic, it raises pH. Since ester formation (a reaction between an alcohol and a carboxylic acid - both of which are found in our boilers) is acid OR base catalysed, it happens much faster at pHs far removed from neutral (pH = 7). Reflux is also often required.

So by adding sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, calcium carbonate, potassium carbonate etc in theory should have a benefit to stop extra esters from forming in the reflux column (due to a more neutral pH) and help to break the ester/ethanol/water azeotrope (but by excluding water as discussed above). Managing a neutral pH may also help to cleave esters back into carboxylic acids and alcohols, but I'm not sure if we'd notice any difference.

As far as flavour goes, the esters are some of the flavour chemicals in our products (along with aldehydes and higher alcohols... and who knows what). So I guess, based on what I've already said, it is likely that sodium carbonate will remove flavour from the product of this wash. Maybe it helps in a positive way, by removing flavour components that mask nicer flavours, or maybe it encourages esters that have a positive impact on flavour to end up in the heads. Only one way to know.

Give it a go.

Wow :o that was an interesting read. I might have to give it a try also and see how it goes.

[EziTasting]

Sorry for the information overload :violence-smack:

Surely it'll help someone though :-B

No need to apologise, ima bit of a science geek myself! Wish I would naive followed the Chemistry path when younger! Always enjoyed it, but never took it seriously as an employment opportunity... :angry-banghead:

Hindsight is 20/20!

[db1979]

Sorry for the information overload :violence-smack:

Surely it'll help someone though :-B

No need to apologise, ima bit of a science geek myself! Wish I would naive followed the Chemistry path when younger! Always enjoyed it, but never took it seriously as an employment opportunity... :angry-banghead:

Hindsight is 20/20!

Chemistry isn't a great career path in Australia unfortunately.

On the flip side I've often wished I hadn't followed it. But all good, live and learn.

[woodduck]

My chemistry career began and finished in the first 3 weeks of year 11 when my teacher proposed a deal... if I sat quietly in the back corner and stared out the window without bothering any other student and I promised to never try make a career out of chemistry he would give me a pass mark.... lets just say they may have well been speaking swahili in that class room :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

[EziTasting]

Lucky Duck!

You got to be an exchange student, awesome! I was too chicken to do it... :D

[woodduck]

It was either chem, home economics or PE and lets just say i would've been just as good at PE as chemistry 8-} :laughing-rolling: thinking back, home ec surrounded by girls would've been a much better option :D

[GBarb]

Explains it perfectly.

On another note, anyone used actually wheat in their recipee before instead of wheat bran

Bump!

[Teddysad]

I did try wheat in the early stages of development of this but found the required flavour did not come through ( even with the cooking)
I stick with the bran

[bayshine]

What I can’t understand is that there’s now 15 pages on this thread and this recipe isn’t in the tried and proven yet? :teasing-tease:

[dans.brew]

What I can’t understand is that there’s now 15 pages on this thread and this recipe isn’t in the tried and proven yet? :teasing-tease:

Yeah it is...

[GBarb]

I did try wheat in the early stages of development of this but found the required flavour did not come through ( even with the cooking)
I stick with the bran

I’ve used a kilo of wheat each time now,

This second round I roughly blitzed it in the blender, before I cooked.

We will see what this second round tastes like.

[EziTasting]

Just did my first one and it’s bloody worked a treat!

To date, my favourite neutral recipe was TPW (ease & cost) - tried others and they were all less functional /cost effective!
Can’t wait to run it and taste it!

[Joycy]

Going to start making my first ever wash and have decided on teddys ffv. I have been struggling to find DAP in Brisbane, I've checked the brew shops and this is all I have found. It does have some other ingredients but would it be suitable to use or should I try find DAP on it's own? I do notice it has Magnesium sulphate, which is Epsom salt?

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