Risk of methanol with home distillation? Studies enclosed

[Ashley12]

When I first started home distillation to experiment with gin styles I was under the impression that providing you stuck to a sugar wash there was absolutely no risk of methanol because sugar washes just don't produce more than trace amounts.

I've always been aware that you can't remove methanol that we'll from cuts because it smears throughout the whole run. But I never really worried about it because *sugar washes don't produce anything worth worrying about*.

But after doing more research it seems that sugar washes can and do produce methanol under the right circumstances of fermentation.

This study is an excellent example of my concerns.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5028366/

This study examines a number of methanol poisonings. The one from Nigeria is the most interesting. A poisoning from a locally distilled spirit from Palm wine. The study discussed that palm wine has zero pectin and in Ngeria, methanol costs more than ethanol being an importanted chemical. Hence it was highly unlikely that the producers would have added this to the locally distilled spirit. Yet they still developed methanol poisoning.

The study discusses how strains of fungi and bacterial contamination during fermentation of the wash can cause hugely varying amounts of methanol to be produced in the wash.

I love the hobby of home distillation. But I'm highly cautious about drinking any of my own spirits now. Is that really all it takes, a little bacterial contamination during fermentation to significantly increase our methanol production?

Would just like to discuss this study with the board members.

I know methanol can be tested via a solution of sodium dichromate and sulfuric acid. Though I can't see any accuracy or standards posted online for this type of testing. Plus, honestly, it's not something I would want to do.

Just a slightly concerned invoice home distiller

[Doubleuj]

Hi Ashley, this is definitely a valid concern for any fruit based washes ( this most likely includes “palm wine”) and I can certainly imagine that microbes could explain this.

But do be rest assured that a simple sugar wash doesn’t produce much (of any methanol) and by doing a good fores cut and heads cuts you’ll remove all chance of consuming any nasties.

[Ashley12]

Thanks for your reply Doubleuj. Yes this definitely made me re question my knowledge and processes.

So just to confirm, no conditions whatsoever could cause a simple sugar wash to create enough methanol to be harmful? What about if the sugar was to be infected with bacteria or fungi? Even then it couldn't generate enough methanol to do harm?

Because from what I gather the study basically concentrates on the possible methanol production from bacteria or fungi in the wash?

My process for creating my neutral is as follows.

Ferment to 14% ABV, remove 100ml from each 4 litre wash to cover heads and fores. I then collect about 800ml of ethanol at 55%. I then collect enough of this to do a spirit run. For the spirit run I combine 3.5 runs of 800ml diluted back to 40%. From this 4 litre spirit run I collect everything upto 70% ethanol then I turn it off and discard the wash.

This gives me a very clean 1.5 litre of distillate at 70% which I then dilute back to 40%.

Is 100ml enough to remove any methanol from the heads and fores for a 14% 4 litre charge of the boiler?

[RuddyCrazy]

Ashley just do cuts and if you only have a small boiler and a small output then 50 or 100ml beakers are the go, they are cheap as by the dozen on feebay and don't forget after taking the cuts put a paper towel over the cut jars and something to keep the paper there and leave for 24 hours or more. The angels will come and take a share which is the stuff we don't want anyway :handgestures-thumbupleft: then use your nose to smell each cut.

Heads will smell like nail polish remover where hearts have little to no smell and tails well if you use a parrot when the abv starts to really drop well thats the sign of tails. Now depending on what you are making some tails can be good for long term aging and for the smell well think wet dog or wet cardboard.

As far as methanol in our hobby quiet a few years ago a good mate did some lab tests on my moonshine and the report back was NO methanol was present in the samples, OK this was cornflakes whisky and not AG or a fruit wash.

[howard]

IMHO that 'study' is just a cobbled report of various studys without much (if any) scientific input by the author.
some of those cases, where hundreds die at once, sound like they involve spontaneous fermentation by whole villages or criminals using industrial alcohol,methanol or even antifreeze.
google "the methanol myth", read and relax.
but try not to drink the local hooch in places like Bali & Lombok.

[The Stig]

I love the “local hooch” in Bali.
If it wasn’t for COVID I was supposed to go into the jungle to a mates girlfriends village to learn how to make the local Arak.
Do not lump everybody together , there are good and bad everywhere you look

[bluc]

I agree with doubleuj. I have fermented distilled lots stuff(no citrus yet) with good protocol i barely even get seedy next day after a 700ml sesh. As opposed to spew drunk on a bottle bundy.

I aint buying into more methanol in tails either. Until I see reputable specotograph results..

[atec77]

When I first started home distillation to experiment with gin styles I was under the impression that providing you stuck to a sugar wash there was absolutely no risk of methanol because sugar washes just don't produce more than trace amounts.

I've always been aware that you can't remove methanol that we'll from cuts because it smears throughout the whole run. But I never really worried about it because *sugar washes don't produce anything worth worrying about*.

But after doing more research it seems that sugar washes can and do produce methanol under the right circumstances of fermentation.

This study is an excellent example of my concerns.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5028366/

This study examines a number of methanol poisonings. The one from Nigeria is the most interesting. A poisoning from a locally distilled spirit from Palm wine. The study discussed that palm wine has zero pectin and in Ngeria, methanol costs more than ethanol being an importanted chemical. Hence it was highly unlikely that the producers would have added this to the locally distilled spirit. Yet they still developed methanol poisoning.

The study discusses how strains of fungi and bacterial contamination during fermentation of the wash can cause hugely varying amounts of methanol to be produced in the wash.

I love the hobby of home distillation. But I'm highly cautious about drinking any of my own spirits now. Is that really all it takes, a little bacterial contamination during fermentation to significantly increase our methanol production?

Would just like to discuss this study with the board members.

I know methanol can be tested via a solution of sodium dichromate and sulfuric acid. Though I can't see any accuracy or standards posted online for this type of testing. Plus, honestly, it's not something I would want to do.

Just a slightly concerned invoice home distiller

if there are not quantity's f pectin in the wash the chances of problems are excellent if memory serves
your gonna be fine

[Brendan]

At the end of the day, regardless of what base your wash is made on, the science of distillation is all about understanding that you have a boiler full of a combination of many different alcohols (including some methanol), each of which have a different boiling point.

If you distill correctly, you will be taking these off in their fractions (of course far more 'blurred' or mixed in a pot still, a reflux column can fraction everything far more precisely), and would be removing most of any methanol in your foreshots cut at the start (as it has one of the lowest boiling points in your wash).

Keep in mind that methanol is created in all alcohol fermentations, including those that aren't distilled like beer and wine...and you drink them without any being removed. It's just at a lower % than if you were to drink your distillate straight, but after good cuts you will almost certainly be methanol free (unless you do something really wrong and somehow can't smell that shit coming off your still at the start).

Happy distilling! :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Wellsy]

Just a side note for some perspective here guys. Everything in life has potential huge risks if not done correctly. Driving, medication, exercise for example. Many years ago , 45 lol, I worked at maccas, I would often do the closing and opening shifts. Part of that process was to strip down the milkshake machine and sterilize all the parts at the end of the day. First thing in the morning the process was reversed and all parts were sterilised again before putting it together. When I asked why sterile twice the answer was if not sterilised properly the bacteria could kill some one. Has not stopped me drinking milkshakes or eating soft serves. Or chicken as if not cooked properly can kill. Salmonella can grow anywhere mate and is deadly.
If you don’t think you can be careful enough don’t do it. If this can happen in our washes the commercial guys have the same risk. Take your time, do the best you can and remember this is meant to be fun and relaxing. If it isn’t it is time to consider a new hobby

[Jedstar]

I am no scientist and relatively new to distilling, but I know one thing and that is the smell of Metho, surely in any meaningful volume to cause harm you would smell/taste it in the product or am I just making some uninformed over simplified assumption guess that could lead to my early demise?

[RC Al]

Yeah the second bit.. lols
Methanol is a very different chemical

What you can smell in metho is mostly the denaturing agent to stop pple drinking it, many used are hard to distill out too.

Just for the record there are a multitude of chemicals (100's) in what we make, many worse than methanol, but not is great quantities. Rum wouldn't be the same without many of them

Go and check out how much methanol is in pineapple juice, some have more than the average beer.

One of the kegX places will do a gcsms for you for a mere $200, if your super concerned, please use the service and post results.